How do I Audit Management Review? Do I audit my boss?

P

potdar

#21
Well, everybody so far has been telling you to audit the PROCESS and not your boss. That sure is confusing. Every process has a face attached to it. That is the process owner. The process owner for the management review process is the MR. So when you are required to audit management review, head for the MR's office. Of course you cant audit the management review by quizzing the Janitor. So go and audit the MR. Get relevant details about the process from him. He will answer your questions. He will explain your queries. He will provide relevant documents and records required for the audit. All these are not going to fall from the heavens on your table because you wish to audit a process. You need an auditee.

If the MR happens to be your BOSS, so be it. Nobody can audit his own work. So his work needs to be audited by someone. And what happens if everyone else reports to him?

If you find any problems, comment on WHAT is wrong. Not WHO is wrong. And thats true for all audits. Not just when the auditee happens to be the Boss.

The answer to your first post is a simple word. YES.
 
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K

kareembs

#22
you can't audit, if your boss and you belong to the same dept(Quality). audit need to be done by a person independent of the function.(iso requirement)
have a great day.

regards,
kareem.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#23
you can't audit, if your boss and you belong to the same dept(Quality). audit need to be done by a person independent of the function.(iso requirement)
have a great day.

regards,
kareem.
Kareem,

Allow me to clarify. ISO 9001:2000 Clause 8.2.2 states: "Auditors shall not audit their own WORK." (Emphasis mine). As long as you do not audit your own work, you can audit your boss' work, your colleagues' work, etc. For example: an internal auditor that works in the purchasing department buying MRO items can audit someone else in that department that purchases raw materials. If you have a larger audit team, (resources!) then you have obviously more options to avoid the appearance of "conflict of interest."

Stijloor.
 
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Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#24
Such good responses so far. They are almost all correct: though you are indeed auditing the process not the person; that could feel iffy because he's in your department. But Management Review must indeed be audited, and unless you have a part in that process you're the one for the job.

In the course of this discussion I found a couple of areas you may want to open up for a further look, which you are permitted to do based on simple discovery in the course of any audit.

1. There should be a way to make sure all the needed elements get audited. How is that done? How do you know it's happening often enough? There should be some kind of schedule or plan that says it's time to audit Management Review. Maybe your boss has that.

2. If you have no audit training, the registrar might call into question your competency to assess the QMS effectiveness. Might want to ask your boss about that too.

Auditing Management Review should not be difficult, and others have outlined the associated elements. When I audit it, I look for inputs, evidence the review has all the needed components (there should be some records) and what came out of the Review(s). What did management decide to act on? What did the deployment of plans look like? What kind of review happened on the results--were they satisfactory? If not, what response did Management have to that? Stuff like that.

I'm so glad we've been helpful to you; I could sure have used a site like this when I started auditing some years ago. Welcome!
 
Y

ywang

#25
1. Yes it's auditing the process and not the person. However, the Management Representative, by definition, should welcome the audit and facilitate as much as he is able. I've audited my boss twice so far, had no problems in this area.

2. My boss and I are not the same person. I don't see any problems auditing anthing that's not directly my work. I was fortunate enough to put together an auditing team with half a dozen people, and I was careful to pick out and include all departments, so we have it good there.

On a side note, I have to audit the internal auditing process. That's a much more hair-pulling experience than auditing your own boss.

3. Sounds like your QMS is not complete. You should think about what you want for your MR and your IA processes. Maybe your boss will accept an extension if you talk to him about it.

4. There's some training required for internal auditing. I was certified as Lead Auditor and that helped me much more than our consultants ever did. If you have had no training, you might consider asking for some.
 
L

LR Mitchell

#26
I am an internal auditor for a manufacturing facility and I, too, audit the management review process by starting with our Management Representative, who happens to be my boss. I look pass the fact that he is my boss and strictly audit the process to the TS requirements, customer specific requirements and our internal procedures. If there are nonconformances in management review, he happens to be the one the issues are addressed to and he is the champion for any corrective actions required. It is difficult sometimes, but we have to keep in mind that we auditing the process, not the person.:bigwave:
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#27
You audit the process of management review. Interview the boss for clarification.

Use your noodle before talking with the boss............

If you have a copy of the review record and can see what went in and what came out and who was present what are you going to ask about?

If your boss's name is in the record as being present during the review, are you going to ask "Were you there?"

If you can see that decisions were made as a result of the review are you going to ask "What did you do?"

If you can see that required inputs were addressed are you going to ask "What was discussed?"

You need to decide what you will achieve from interviewing the boss that you cannot get from the review record. Now if there are some problems or clarifications neede, by all means interview.....and definitely don't waste the persons time by asking "What is the policy?"

A good question I use is "What are your responsibilities within the MS?" But, you had better know the answer before you ask the question and that holds true for all questions.
 
L

LR Mitchell

#28
Thank you. I do pull all the review meeting minute notes and other documentation that was reviewed during the management review. After reviewing the documents, I make decisions on who I need to interview, if any.
 

Caster

An Early Cover
Trusted Information Resource
#29
If your boss's name is in the record as being present during the review, are you going to ask "Were you there?"
If you can see that decisions were made as a result of the review are you going to ask "What did you do?"
If you can see that required inputs were addressed are you going to ask "What was discussed?"
and definitely don't waste the persons time by asking "What is the policy?"
A good question I use is "What are your responsibilities within the MS?" But, you had better know the answer before you ask the question and that holds true for all questions.
This non value audit approach may come about from copying what an external auditor does. They usually have not done enough prep work (heck we pay them by the hour) so they have to start with these really basic questions.

As an internal auditor, you should have access to the procedure and the meeting records. A few hours of desk work should pretty much determine basic compliance. Does the procedure as written meet ISO? Do the meeting minutes meet the requirements as written? Is action in place when targets are not met? Is improvement underway even when targets were met?

As an internal auditor I know all this before I ever set foot in the big guys office. My questions are to see if there is other evidence that can close identified gaps. There often is. The system has not kept up with the reality of day to day. An easy CAR to close. Other times there really is a gap, which takes a bit more effort to correct.

I have never had a problem auditing the boss, I often get more detail about the long term business plan than I really wanted/needed to know.

People around here know I never ask a question I don't already know the answer to.
 
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