How do you audit past verbal approvals against ISO 9001 Clause 4.2.3a?

K

Ka Pilo

#1
So, reading another thread yesterday I came upon a post by one of our forum member Big Jim which contained the following. Go ahead and read it carefully, if you will:
Approval is necessary. Recording the approval is not.
I wanted to talk about it, but I didn't want to take the topic of that thread too far afield. I messaged Big Jim asking him to discuss it in another thread I’d here create, starting with the quote itself, but he hasn't replied to PM message yet. Supposedly, the idea is that Big Jim or others will post below to expand on and clarify or refute his thoughts –- specially, regarding unnecessary recording of approvals (though he may need to speak more broadly to make his points). Let me cite 2 unanswered questions from the original thread:

1) How can you show that approval precede the document’s release date?
2) How the verbal approver can recall all her/his verbal approval for each release of the documents in case auditor request?

For people who are reading this, on either "side" of the "debate," or not on a side at all: if you would like to join the discussions – welcome!

So, Big Jim, if you would like to expand on and your quote above, sir, then I happily say: the floor is yours. How can you audit past verbal approvals against 4.2.3a?
 
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P

Phiobi

#2
Re: How do you audit past verbal approvals against ISO 4.2.3a?

Is it not enough to just document that something has been approved?

I would think so!
 
B

bazboy

#3
Re: How do you audit past verbal approvals against ISO 4.2.3a?

Evidence of approval must be available. For verbal approvals the approver should document the necessary details of the approval.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#4
Re: How do you audit past verbal approvals against ISO 4.2.3a?

Evidence of approval must be available. For verbal approvals the approver should document the necessary details of the approval.
Incorrect. For example, a document control procedure may state that: "Only approved documents reside on the computer system." An organization decides how it approves its documents.

Stijloor.
 
K

Ka Pilo

#5
Re: How do you audit past verbal approvals against ISO 4.2.3a?

For example, a document control procedure may state that: "Only approved documents reside on the computer system." An organization decides how it approves its documents.
Is there a record of approval for the document control procedure?
 
#7
Re: How do you audit past verbal approvals against ISO 4.2.3a?

If a member of management - a process owner - writes a document regarding their process, approves it, distributes it (maybe on a company 'public access' drive folder for approved documents) and the auditor asks about that process and it's verbally confirmed, what other evidence is required?
 
K

Ka Pilo

#8
Re: How do you audit past verbal approvals against ISO 4.2.3a?

See post #4. ;)

Stijloor.
Frankly - I don't understand post #4. I hope Bazboy would clarify his thoughts.

So, from what I understand in post #5 - your post, you believe that recording the approval of documents that resides on the computer system is no longer necessary as the document control procedure say so. This is what makes it recording the approval of documents not necessary. I hope I’m clear on that.
If that is the case, I would consider it as settled. (Though I think plenty of forum members may disagree)

However, you didn’t clarify if approval of control of document is recorded so I cannot take it as settled.
 
J
#9
Re: How do you audit past verbal approvals against ISO 4.2.3a?

Is there a record of approval for the document control procedure?
Perhaps the underlying problem with this entire question of documentation is one of "approach".
In other words, is the auditor's approach one of, "show me" everything? Or is the approach one of is the system effective?
In the first approach the result will eventually be "document everything" and you'll have a "big honkin' binder" full of (unnecessary?)records....
In the second approach the result is you judge these kinds of edtails by the overall effectiveness of the system.

The "Show me" approach is, in my view, a negative one while the second aproach is a positive one.
An auditor should approach an audit with the idea that the auditee is doing things right. Taking the positive approach and looking at things from an effectiveness standpoint can cut out a lot of unnecessary paperwork.

Just my 2 cents worth

Peace
James
 
K

Ka Pilo

#10
Re: How do you audit past verbal approvals against ISO 4.2.3a?

Perhaps the underlying problem with this entire question of documentation is one of "approach".
In other words, is the auditor's approach one of, "show me" everything? Or is the approach one of is the system effective?
In the first approach the result will eventually be "document everything" and you'll have a "big honkin' binder" full of (unnecessary?)records....
In the second approach the result is you judge these kinds of edtails by the overall effectiveness of the system.

The "Show me" approach is, in my view, a negative one while the second aproach is a positive one.
An auditor should approach an audit with the idea that the auditee is doing things right. Taking the positive approach and looking at things from an effectiveness standpoint can cut out a lot of unnecessary paperwork.

Just my 2 cents worth

Peace
James
I agree that effectiveness of the system is the most important but we are not talking about 1000 (or more) conformities. We are talking 4.2.3a vs verbal approvals specifically. Can you think of the risks of verbal approvals?
 
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