How do you audit past verbal approvals against ISO 9001 Clause 4.2.3a?

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#32
Consider this scenario. The verbally approved procedure supersedes the prior procedure with written approval. If someone violated the exiting procedure, it's hard to bring legal action. The offender can argue that he followed the legitimate procedure, meaning the signed one.

No, judge in a court would take your side, for your reason that a violation was made. A written approval always takes precedence over verbal approval, IMO.
It seems that you're forgetting that the nature/content of the document being approved - to begin calling such situations as 'violations' is to escalate the point beyond reasonableness...without knowledge of the actual document purpose/content.
 
K

Ka Pilo

#33
"Show me records of approvals" is an inappropriate audit question in such circumstances, because there's no requirement for them.
Not quite. It depends on the situation.

And by the way who asked that question? I read a lot of replies, none of which backed up a word you said. Show me where.

The two unanswerd questions are:

1) How can you show that verbal approval precede the document’s release date?
2) How the verbal approver can recall all her/his verbal approval for each release of the documents in case auditor request?
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#34
Not quite. It depends on the situation.

And by the way who asked that question? I read a lot of replies, none of which backed up a word you said. Show me where.

The two unanswerd questions are:

1) How can you show that verbal approval precede the document’s release date?
2) How the verbal approver can recall all her/his verbal approval for each release of the documents in case auditor request?

Just curious; has this been an issue at your organization or just a hypothetical case?

Stijloor.
 
K

Ka Pilo

#35
It seems that you're forgetting that the nature/content of the document being approved - to begin calling such situations as 'violations' is to escalate the point beyond reasonableness...without knowledge of the actual document purpose/content.
Could you be more specific as to what exactly bothers you about the term violation? You can think of any violations as many as you can. The scenario stands whatever type of violation you use.
 
#38
Could you be more specific as to what exactly bothers you about the term violation? You can think of any violations as many as you can. The scenario stands whatever type of violation you use.
In the English language, the use of the term violation is generally as it relates to law enforcement. For example, the police issue tickets for violations of laws and ordinances. To speak of violations in terms of a Quality Management System requirement is counter cultural to improvement etc. Auditors are not cops and shouldn't use such terminology if they are competent and meet the profile outlined in ISO 19011.
 
K

Ka Pilo

#40
I think you're making a mountain out of a molehill...;)

Stijloor.
I am not. The thread is getting longer. To save the rest of us from posting and arguing try to answer those questions? If you can give a reasonable answer then I will concede - recording of approval is not necessary. If you cannot, then tell me if I am making a mountain out of a molehill.
 
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