How do you handle a pushy auditor?

Randy

Super Moderator
#51
Re: How do you handle an arrogant auditor?

How would you handle an auditor who is arbitrary in application of the requirements in many cases making interpretations outside of the cope of the standard, and at one instance accepts the quality system as adequate and then 4 months later identifies multiple non-conformances when the system itself is unchaged?

It really depends upon what think is arbitrary. I've had more than one client/auditee raise objections about "my" interpretations, except I don't interpret. What I do is use the entire standard especially the stuff in front or behind the "shall's and in the case of 9K I use 9000:2005 to help show where I am coming from. I don't audit to that other stuff, but it is relevant, especially when it come to definitions.

One recent "discussion" had to do with my "interpretation" of the internal audit program requirement and their internal audit program procedure. They had both a QMS and EMS and the internal audit requirements are identical, and I quote:

9001:2000 - The organization shall conduct internal audits at planned intervals to determine whether the quality management system
a) conforms to the planned arrangements (see 7.1), to the requirements of this International Standard and to the quality management system requirements established by the organization....

14001:2004 - The organization shall ensure that internal audits of the environmental management system are conducted at planned intervals to

a) determine whether the environmental management system

1) conforms to planned arrangements for environmental management including the requirements of this International Standard,


Here is esentially what thier procedure said: "The purpose of the internal audit program and conduct of internal audit is to determine non-conformities within the management systems..."

The problem came up when I said the procedure and conduct of audits did not meet the requirements and and a non-conformity exists. Well guess what happened on their part? :mad::censor::blowup:

It was even worse than that, thay had adopted 100% the corporate procedure and the systems had been in place a couple of years. I was the new kid on the block and immediately I was wrong because I was "interpreting".

In the end guess what....re-written procedure. Why? It wasn't interpretation, it was what it was, and a new set of eyes that saw the tree's in the forest.

An audit, if done correctly, is nothing more than a representative sampling of the whole...kinda like getting a single piece from a whole cherry pie. Its understood that one piece should taste the same as another if taken from the same pie. Occasionally though something happens, a pit gets left in a cherry, some dough doesn't mix or cook right, maybe the sugar didn't get blended in the same....that's what happens in the audit. We taste the same pie in different areas and sometimes it tastes the same and sometimes we get a pit.

This is what I teach and how I teach it. Auditing is not an exact science, it escapes quantification because of the variables...like the pie. Once we understand and accept that we can then lay out the basics and work on tightening up the variables....understanding that they will always be there. Auditors are a variable and that is why I will spend so much time trying to get them to look at the "word's", to understand their meaning and to understand their relationships to the other "words"
 
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Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#52
On auditors finding "new" things when auditee thinks nothing has changed.

On auditors finding "new" things when auditee thinks nothing has changed.
My first thought would be whether the point raised by the auditor was valid on its face. If the point is valid, nothing else matters.

As Randy points out in his "soul baring" post, auditors are taking snapshots. Before digital cameras, we had to wait until the roll of film was developed to discover whether someone blinked or a wiseacre put rabbit ears behind someone else's head. It's easy to miss one thing while looking at something else.

Heck, I sometimes look two or three times in the same place before I spot my car keys among some clutter on my desk when I am in a hurry to go out. The key point is that I am usually distracted by something I perceive as more important and overlook the "obvious." When I direct my focus to the task at hand, the keys stand out like Day Glow Orange on a beige background.

It is my experience that simply ASKING the auditor why the discrepancy is singled out this time versus previously might get some very insightful answers and maybe even foster some new respect for the auditor.
 
D

dcsmith1001

#53
Re: How do you handle an arrogant auditor?

Our auditor was "friends" with the previous QA Manager and there is NO WAY in the world that quality system should have ever passed even the most cursory of 5 minute exceptions. The auditor passed a quality system totally lacking in even basic elements of the simpest ISO standard. And yet, he passed the QA System time and again until, thst is, his friend had been discharged.
 
D

dcsmith1001

#55
Re: On auditors finding "new" things when auditee thinks nothing has changed.

On auditors finding "new" things when auditee thinks nothing has changed.
My first thought would be whether the point raised by the auditor was valid on its face. If the point is valid, nothing else matters.

As Randy points out in his "soul baring" post, auditors are taking snapshots. Before digital cameras, we had to wait until the roll of film was developed to discover whether someone blinked or a wiseacre put rabbit ears behind someone else's head. It's easy to miss one thing while looking at something else.

Heck, I sometimes look two or three times in the same place before I spot my car keys among some clutter on my desk when I am in a hurry to go out. The key point is that I am usually distracted by something I perceive as more important and overlook the "obvious." When I direct my focus to the task at hand, the keys stand out like Day Glow Orange on a beige background.

It is my experience that simply ASKING the auditor why the discrepancy is singled out this time versus previously might get some very insightful answers and maybe even foster some new respect for the auditor.
Not only did this auditor previously pass the quality system, he also was personal friends with the prior QA Manager, signing off audit after audit. In addition to passing a quality system totally lacking in any semblence of a system but he slao made disparaging and personal comments about some members of the staff working at the client company. Hardly a pro.
 
D

dcsmith1001

#56
Re: How do you handle an arrogant auditor?

How would you handle an auditor who is arbitrary in application of the requirements in many cases making interpretations outside of the cope of the standard, and at one instance accepts the quality system as adequate and then 4 months later identifies multiple non-conformances when the system itself is unchaged?
I do not wish to get to specific as I see that auditor posting here regularly but suffice it to say, the auditor examined product out side of the scope of the TS standard (non-automotive), conducted sampling of test parts in a scrap bin! And, then asked, how do you control the scrap!!!! (It was in the scrap bin). He also made personnel remarks about members of the company staff. All of this after passing the quality system for 3 prior audits when his "friend" and personal acquaintance was the QA Manager. I truly wonder how much of what his findings were really involved the standard???
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#57
Re: How do you handle an arrogant auditor?

Our auditor was "friends" with the previous QA Manager and there is NO WAY in the world that quality system should have ever passed even the most cursory of 5 minute exceptions. The auditor passed a quality system totally lacking in even basic elements of the simpest ISO standard. And yet, he passed the QA System time and again until, thst is, his friend had been discharged.
What you describe here would fall under the "conflict of interest" scenario, and, under the requirements of the ISO/IEC 17021 document, in the context of "Management of impartiality", the auditor and/or the CB failed to comply with the paragraph that reads
[FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]5.2.13 [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, sans-serif]Certification bodies shall require personnel, internal and external, to reveal any situation known to them that may present them or the certification body with a conflict of interests. Certification bodies shall use this information as input to identifying threats to impartiality raised by the activities of such personnel or by the organizations that employ them, and shall not use such personnel, internal or external, unless they can demonstrate that there is no conflict of interests. [/FONT]
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#58
Re: How do you handle an arrogant auditor?

What you describe here would fall under the "conflict of interest" scenario, and, under the requirements of the ISO/IEC 17021 document, in the context of "Management of impartiality", the auditor and/or the CB failed to comply with the paragraph that reads
Hi, Sidney. I didn't copy your quote - believe me I know the text by heart now. :lol:

There is a general honesty principle here. Our CB has had this requirement for years - as, I am sure, has yours. It is not new to 17021. But, as you have rightly pointed out either the auditor in this case has not been asked to make a declaration of impartiality by their CB or he may have been "economical with the truth."
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#59
Re: How do you handle an arrogant auditor?

There is a general honesty principle here. Our CB has had this requirement for years - as, I am sure, has yours. It is not new to 17021. But, as you have rightly pointed out either the auditor in this case has not been asked to make a declaration of impartiality by their CB or he may have been "economical with the truth."
You are right, Paul. Bias-free auditors has been an underlying aspect and expectation of the 3rd party system since day one. Furthermore, friendship is such a subjective term...:tg:
 
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