How do you Perform Internal Audit on your Internal Auditing System?

D

David DeLong

#11
Here is what I would suggest.

Have 1 or maybe 2 Internal Auditors trained to perform the internal audit on internal auditing. Make sure these individuals do not audit any other area of the audit otherwise there would be a conflict (minor discrepancy).

There is an internal audit section on the checklist (really a guide) and it will review the last audit results and it would cover at least the following:

Was the last internal audit performed per documentation?
All areas completed correctly?
Have the corrective actions on noted descrepancies been distributed to department Managers?
Have the all corrective actions from the last audit been completed correctly and returned to Lead Auditor within the scheduled time frame?
Have the completed corrective action been verified and is there verification objection evidence?

Just some thoughts.
 
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C

curryassassin

#12
Slightly off-piste. Should internal audits find most non-conformances before the certification or even customer audit? Is this a measure of audit effectiveness? As auditing is based on a sample of the process, should all critical and major faults be discovered during internal audit? We usually find that our customers come up with new things in most audit reports.
 
#13
My Curry-Buddy!
It's true to say that internal auditors should be more in tune with the general business climate, and therefore might be able to 'find' more than any external auditor. However, it really depends on the nature of the audit findings and that business climate, their experience of the process, planning etc. I find it very difficult to show that auditors have done any kind of measurable job on the system - number of findings etc is really inappropriate. This topic has been done to death here before, too.
If the external (customer) auditors find different things, that's possible due to the nature of auditing, the 'sample' as it were. But it's worth getting someone else to take a look at what they do, how they prepare/conduct the audit. You could shadow the internal auditors, too.
 
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C

curryassassin

#14
Our only other internal auditor must be effective - I trained her !!!
Actually, I think in our (pharmaceutical) industry we find it is probably more a question of specific customer requirements and a different interpretation of regulations, that may be the cause of some of their comments. Cheers.
 
Y

ywang

#15
Our only other internal auditor must be effective - I trained her !!!
Actually, I think in our (pharmaceutical) industry we find it is probably more a question of specific customer requirements and a different interpretation of regulations, that may be the cause of some of their comments. Cheers.

Yep I would be very happy if customers found different things than we did. This is a good step in bridging that communication gap. Knowing what they want in our system we should begin to make them happy indeed.
 
#16
Yep I would be very happy if customers found different things than we did. This is a good step in bridging that communication gap. Knowing what they want in our system we should begin to make them happy indeed.
I hope that works for you! In the some industries, the customers' auditors would soon bankrupt the supplier by adding a lot of non-value added steps, just to keep them 'happy'.......and it would change every time a new auditor appeared!
 
Y

ywang

#17
I hope that works for you! In the some industries, the customers' auditors would soon bankrupt the supplier by adding a lot of non-value added steps, just to keep them 'happy'.......and it would change every time a new auditor appeared!
That's unfortunate. In my company I get a lot of "don't care, just do it cause the customer said so," also. I think this is in part due to Marketing and Sales and in part due to our customers. Often you have to be patient enough to educate your customer to be reasonable so you can make them happy. Usually this is a QA function and not a Sales function.

If you're handling customer audits, you must have access to the customer? In my position I don't often have that luxury. What's your industry and how are you audited?
 
R

Roland Cooke

#18
Great thread.

One of the areas that I often find very weak in companies is the strategic outline of the IA programme. A very basic schedule is created without taking into account:

a) if all the processes/activities/locations/shifts etc etc have been identified*
b) if all the interfaces between the above have been identified

*i.e. usually within the quality manual and/or top level quality systems documentation



Whilst we tend to accept that small companies that employ QMS consultants to help them design and manage their QMS won't have the luxury of having another consultant do their internal audits, I do like to see as much effort as possible put in to achieving a sensible level of independence.

The consultant can usually confirm (via IA) that the procedures he/she has written are being followed, but who is checking that the procedures encompass the whole company, are compliant with whatever standards are being applied etc etc. That's not always an easy ask....
 
Y

ywang

#19
Great thread.

One of the areas that I often find very weak in companies is the strategic outline of the IA programme. A very basic schedule is created without taking into account:

a) if all the processes/activities/locations/shifts etc etc have been identified*
b) if all the interfaces between the above have been identified

*i.e. usually within the quality manual and/or top level quality systems documentation



Whilst we tend to accept that small companies that employ QMS consultants to help them design and manage their QMS won't have the luxury of having another consultant do their internal audits, I do like to see as much effort as possible put in to achieving a sensible level of independence.

The consultant can usually confirm (via IA) that the procedures he/she has written are being followed, but who is checking that the procedures encompass the whole company, are compliant with whatever standards are being applied etc etc. That's not always an easy ask....
Given that usually no one cares about such frivilous things as processes and interfaces except the QM, Internal Auditing can feel like choosing between peanuts and the elephant.

I've done consulting IA and IA for my company. It seems all the work is being done by the QM. We try to get people to write their own procedures and take ownership of their own processes, and get off this "you wrote it, you own it, therefore I'm not responsible" track.

We've gone from start-up to almost mid-sized now. The growing pains are quite painful :tg: I can't imagine how we would have fared if my job was done by consultants! :mg: The consultants we employed for certification definitely were not as effective.

I'd recommend doing it yourself, even if it means giving someone in your organization a major headache. Usually it's someone who's inexperienced, but that's what we're here for.
 
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