How important is a Quality Manual - ISO 9001:2008 to 9001:2015

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#11
Re: ISO 9001:2008 to 9001:2015 Quality Manual

For whom? It's not a case of "less confusing". There should be NO confusion. That's why I said, ditch the conventional wisdom of a clause by clause manual. Don't forget when you "wright" a manual, your clients don't know any better - they accept you are giving them something which is required (when many know it isn't) and will smile and pay you...

The fact is, a manual isn't going to be required, so why continue to keep one foot in the 20th century?
So far EVERY person that I have explained the new standard to is dumbfounded by dropping the requirement to have a quality manual. Their comment usually is along the lines of how can they function without one. Another common comment is that they feel that they need some sort of structure to make their system work.

Maybe you don't have the same sort of clients.

Nigel Croft, the chairman of TC-176, the committee in ISO that is responsible for ISO 9001, on his first webinar, stated that it is anticipated that most companies will still have one.

So if I'm locked in the 20 th century, I'm in good company.

The good thing is that by not having a requirement to have a manual, there is also no requirement as to what needs to be in the manual, so a company can construct it any way they want. They can use one, or not, they can construct it any way they want. They can make it as useful as they want or not.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#12
Re: ISO 9001:2008 to 9001:2015 Quality Manual

So far EVERY person that I have explained the new standard to is dumbfounded by dropping the requirement to have a quality manual. Their comment usually is along the lines of how can they function without one. Another common comment is that they feel that they need some sort of structure to make their system work.
Ah, but you're talking about organizations in transition. Not those coming NEW to ISO 9001! What then? What about the scores of organizations who have no preconceived ideas of how to create a management system, And, let's NOT forget all those ISO 14001 compliant and certified EMSs with NO "EMS Manual"...
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#13
Re: ISO 9001:2008 to 9001:2015 Quality Manual

Some of those are registered to multiple standards including 14001.

I personally don't see how many companies will want to function without one, just as Nigel Croft mentioned. Maybe you hang out with a different crowd then him too.
 
#14
Re: ISO 9001:2008 to 9001:2015 Quality Manual

Some of those are registered to multiple standards including 14001.

I personally don't see how many companies will want to function without one, just as Nigel Croft mentioned. Maybe you hang out with a different crowd then him too.
Because they functioned perfectly well without, that's why! Why force a document which brings so little actual value to running the business?
 

dsanabria

Quite Involved in Discussions
#15
Re: ISO 9001:2008 to 9001:2015 Quality Manual

Hi.
ISO 2015 version do not require a quality manual but our company insist to have one in place as this is a good reference point to what is required of a System the ensure the product meet he customer requirements.
The higher structure of the current manual is not inline with the new High Level Structure.

1. How important or essential is to ensure that the the quality manual if still to be kept represent the higher Structure of the 9001:2015?

(It is a quite difficult task and it is a puzzles of throwing this up in the air and trying to put the pieces together.)

We have a three years grace to adapt to the new standards . I am currently reviewing the entire document and need to know if there is a template manual that I can follow.. Quality Gurus has some tool to aid you but this is breaking my brain cells to update the table than the content accordingly.

I am not in a hurry but would like to get it right first time.

Cheers for any aid that I can get. :cfingers:
Has the final official copy of the ISO Standard come out? if so, can someone let me know where I could get one - meanwhile, I will continue with my popcorn and wait till the final word in given...:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

In other words - do not over think something that might not happen.... cherrios!
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#16
Re: ISO 9001:2008 to 9001:2015 Quality Manual

Because they functioned perfectly well without, that's why! Why force a document which brings so little actual value to running the business?
I can't tell you how many companies, successful companies, discovered that applying ISO 9001 made life easier.

Being successful doesn't mean they can't improve, and ISO 9001 helps to accomplish that, or at least it does if they embrace ISO 9001. Those that don't, find it a festering thorn in their side.

Maybe I do have a biased sample. I call on many companies that I helped them to get registered and helped them understand how it can help. Perhaps it is from that biased sample that gives me that response.

And perhaps not, as EVERYONE that has heard that the manual is no longer required is shocked, not just the best companies.

So I guess that we just hang out in different worlds with different realities.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#17
Re: ISO 9001:2008 to 9001:2015 Quality Manual

Has the final official copy of the ISO Standard come out? if so, can someone let me know where I could get one - meanwhile, I will continue with my popcorn and wait till the final word in given...:popcorn::popcorn::popcorn:

In other words - do not over think something that might not happen.... cherrios!
It is expected that there will be no significant changes between the DIS and the FDIS. Changes would be limited to things that would improve readability, grammar, punctuation, etc.

It is also expected that there will be no changes between the FDIS and the actual standard.

So it is very likely that what they end up with will be very close to what has been released (the DIS). The FDIS is expected to be released very soon.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
#18
Re: ISO 9001:2008 to 9001:2015 Quality Manual

I can't tell you how many companies, successful companies, discovered that applying ISO 9001 made life easier.

Being successful doesn't mean they can't improve, and ISO 9001 helps to accomplish that, or at least it does if they embrace ISO 9001. Those that don't, find it a festering thorn in their side.

Maybe I do have a biased sample. I call on many companies that I helped them to get registered and helped them understand how it can help. Perhaps it is from that biased sample that gives me that response.

And perhaps not, as EVERYONE that has heard that the manual is no longer required is shocked, not just the best companies.

So I guess that we just hang out in different worlds with different realities.
But this isn't the issue, Jim. I'm not disputing the improvement ISO 9001 adoption can bring. We're discussing the value of structuring the QM around each version of the standard - aren't we? There's a huge gulf between a single document and it's use and the whole system complying with ISO. How did you mix the 2?
 

Peter Fraser

Trusted Information Resource
#19
Re: ISO 9001:2008 to 9001:2015 Quality Manual

I can't tell you how many companies, successful companies, discovered that applying ISO 9001 made life easier.
Jim

But that isn't the question (even though it suggests another topic for discussion...)

There is a quite incredible number of quality manuals in existence that provide no obvious information or business benefit. The standard has never suggested a reason for requiring one, and what has always mystified me is that, if it is supposed to be an essential summary of a quality system, the quality policy doesn't belong in it.
 

Big Jim

Super Moderator
#20
Re: ISO 9001:2008 to 9001:2015 Quality Manual

But this isn't the issue, Jim. I'm not disputing the improvement ISO 9001 adoption can bring. We're discussing the value of structuring the QM around each version of the standard - aren't we? There's a huge gulf between a single document and it's use and the whole system complying with ISO. How did you mix the 2?
Go back and read post 9.

I'm suggesting that a well written quality manual can reflect the structure of the standard, not that it must be written that way.

When a quality manual is written based on the structure of the standard, it is confusing when it is structured around an obsolete version.

You say that the manual doesn't need to have any reference to the standard at all, and I agree. As to if it does or not is a matter of preference.

One of the reasons that I recommend that it does follow the standard is that the better a companies leadership understands the standard the better they can administer it and the better they can defend their position to a misguided auditor.

I'm not saying that your way is wrong, only that it isn't the only way and some (including me) would say it usually isn't the best way.
 
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