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How is it that gage manufacturers are not required to be accredited?

DietCokeofEvil

Trusted Information Resource
#1
How is it that gage manufacturers are not required to be accredited? I know that some are by choice- but there are many others that are "compliant" but not accredited.

I don't understand why I have to be accredited to measure the gages, but they make the gages and are not required to be.

Thanks,
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#3
How is it that gage manufacturers are not required to be accredited? I know that some are by choice- but there are many others that are "compliant" but not accredited.

I don't understand why I have to be accredited to measure the gages, but they make the gages and are not required to be.

Thanks,
Because it's purely in the laps of the customer? Gauge makers make gauges and, if a customer so requires it, the gauge can be calibrated. They aren't likely to go to the expense of calibrating all their products when not everyone knows or even cares about full-on, 17025 type, calibration.
 

Hershal

Metrologist-Auditor
Staff member
Super Moderator
#4
Actually, accreditation to ISO/IEC 17025 for a manufacturer is not the correct standard. If they have an internal cal lab, or calibrate at the end of the production line, then it could be applied there. But for the manufacturing, ISO9001 is the correct standard.

Personally, I believe accreditation for their calibration functions would be highly desirable, but absent a push by the marketplace as a whole, or a regulatory requirement, it is unlikely.
 
R

Reg Morrison

#5
Because it's purely in the laps of the customer? Gauge makers make gauges and, if a customer so requires it, the gauge can be calibrated. They aren't likely to go to the expense of calibrating all their products when not everyone knows or even cares about full-on, 17025 type, calibration.
But what would be the point of selling a gage that is not reliable? A gage needs to be calibrated so it fulfills it's intended usage. Irrespective of ISO 9001 and 17025, I think that customers of a gage manufacturer would be justified to expect that the products being delivered are calibrated to the OEM spec and if that is not the case, the gage manufacturer should provide AMPLE warning to the customer.
 
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#6
If I use a gauge with a 10:1 (or even 4:1) capability, why would I need it to be calibrated? If it's made and measured using calibrated equipment, that's all I need to know. My use may not be able to discriminate to the sizes shown. See these specs http://www.meyergage.com/products/class-z-sets-libraries/

How much off would make a difference if I'm gauging an open tolerance hole with a pin gauge, made to:
NEW Class Z
Size deviation .0001?
Roundness geometry .00005?
Surface finish 8 micro

Calibration, as you know, often includes lots of features which aren't important to basic measurement. We also know that calibration is an "over blown" requirements, when a simple verification is all that's needed.
 

dgriffith

Quite Involved in Discussions
#7
But what would be the point of selling a gage that is not reliable? A gage needs to be calibrated so it fulfills it's intended usage. Irrespective of ISO 9001 and 17025, I think that customers of a gage manufacturer would be justified to expect that the products being delivered are calibrated to the OEM spec and if that is not the case, the gage manufacturer should provide AMPLE warning to the customer.
If the gauges don't meet the market needs, the market will soon dictate the fate of the company. However, I wouldn't say a company's calibration service--even if fully internal to support manufacturing--coudn't provide quality measurements just because they aren't accredited. There are plenty of mom-and-pop outfits who are very good at what they do.

Specification assignment is much more than just calibration measurements, and isn't arrived at lightly by anyone wanting to stay in business for the long haul.
 

DietCokeofEvil

Trusted Information Resource
#8
But what would be the point of selling a gage that is not reliable? A gage needs to be calibrated so it fulfills it's intended usage. Irrespective of ISO 9001 and 17025, I think that customers of a gage manufacturer would be justified to expect that the products being delivered are calibrated to the OEM spec and if that is not the case, the gage manufacturer should provide AMPLE warning to the customer.
This is where I am coming from on this. Regardless of whether or not people think 4:1 doesn't need to be calibrated, my customers apparently disagree. They are buying gages that are being claimed meet specific requirements, when if fact, oftentimes they are not. They are being charged for the privilege of purchasing higher accuracy gages to meet their requirements, and as often as I see gages that need to be reworked come through my door- I really hate to see how many customers who purchase gages direct and use manufacturer certs find out their gages are actually no good. I currently have 4 orders of gages on my desk that have to be returned- one of which were set plugs and thread rings that were made together- but the rings won't even go on the setting plugs, or have no root relief and will not go further than the full form. Yet, I have certs here that say the rings are perfect. This is the second time this has happened in a month- from two different manufacturers.

I can assume that most places that purchase direct from cheaper vendors don't really care about accuracy- which is their prerogative. I have to think about my customers though- in high accuracy industries that are relying on these gages to be correct before they use them.

As you can tell, I'm a little :mad: about this issue- maybe I just need some perspective- but quite frankly, I have no choice in which vendors to use and I can't tell the customer "you get what you pay for" when they get upset at me for rejecting their brand new gage or for sending their gage back (if we ordered it) because it was no good.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#9
This is where I am coming from on this. Regardless of whether or not people think 4:1 doesn't need to be calibrated, my customers apparently disagree. They are buying gages that are being claimed meet specific requirements, when if fact, oftentimes they are not. They are being charged for the privilege of purchasing higher accuracy gages to meet their requirements, and as often as I see gages that need to be reworked come through my door- I really hate to see how many customers who purchase gages direct and use manufacturer certs find out their gages are actually no good. I currently have 4 orders of gages on my desk that have to be returned- one of which were set plugs and thread rings that were made together- but the rings won't even go on the setting plugs, or have no root relief and will not go further than the full form. Yet, I have certs here that say the rings are perfect. This is the second time this has happened in a month- from two different manufacturers.

I can assume that most places that purchase direct from cheaper vendors don't really care about accuracy- which is their prerogative. I have to think about my customers though- in high accuracy industries that are relying on these gages to be correct before they use them.

As you can tell, I'm a little :mad: about this issue- maybe I just need some perspective- but quite frankly, I have no choice in which vendors to use and I can't tell the customer "you get what you pay for" when they get upset at me for rejecting their brand new gage or for sending their gage back (if we ordered it) because it was no good.
If I understand you correctly, you're saying that you would rather get nonconforming gages from a manufacturer with an accredited lab. :D

Seriously though, it sounds as if you're reselling gages you purchase from a manufacturer, and you have no latitude as to which manufacturers you purchase from. Is this correct? If it is, there doesn't seem to be a lot you can do outside of checking the gages yourself when they're received, which I realize may not always be possible.
 

DietCokeofEvil

Trusted Information Resource
#10
That's what we do. We purchase gages for our customers- we check them here before sending them out unless the customer specifies otherwise. In the last 3 months I've had 26 rejected new gages- which is about 2 per week. Unfortunately, I think I now have 5 on my desk from this week alone- I've lost track. :(

There isn't a lot I can do except issue corrective actions- that led me to asking here about why gage manufacturer's aren't held to the standard they are supposed to be manufacturing to. I know some have accredited labs, and I always thought they were the least of my concerns- but after this week, I'm not so sure about those anymore either.
 
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