How many fail ALL ISO 9001 registration audits - How many never make it?

[Sidney Vianna]

My assumption was that if you pay the money, you will get certified (perhaps with improvements required) provided you at least produce the required paperwork.

Just like every student that attends a private school/college is promoted to the next grade, irrespective of their academic performance?

 

[AndyN]

Re: 9002 hanging around?

I still notice trucks, shingles, letterheads still bearing ISO9002 logos from our biggest certifying body in Australia.

Is this happening in America too?

Indeed, there is a large trucking company (the parent is going through 'tough times') and they still have ISO 9002 on their trailers. However, does it say anywhere that the company must repaint the 'logo' every time the standard goes through a revision? Who'd be the brave auditor who'd raise an issue with a major customer over the trailers bearing the 'wrong issue' of the standard - hardly a document control finding, is it?

 

[Jim Wynne]

Re: 9002 hanging around?

Indeed, there is a large trucking company (the parent is going through 'tough times') and they still have ISO 9002 on their trailers. However, does it say anywhere that the company must repaint the 'logo' every time the standard goes through a revision? Who'd be the brave auditor who'd raise an issue with a major customer over the trailers bearing the 'wrong issue' of the standard - hardly a document control finding, is it?

There's a Chrysler engine plant (now scheduled for closing) here where I live that just recently (in the past six months or so) took down a prominent "ISO 9002 Certified" sign on one of its buildings.

 

[AndyN]

Is it actually possible to fail an not get certified?

My assumption was that if you pay the money, you will get certified (perhaps with improvements required) provided you at least produce the required paperwork.

Of course it is! And the stated assumption is, like many, incorrect.

Certification has little to do with just producing 'required paperwork' (whatever that is). Certainly some documentation of processes, procedures and records is required. Indeed, organizations receive certificates when they need to perform corrective actions - nothing said a system had to be 'perfect'. It's in the nature of continuous improvement, after all....

Furthermore, unless an organization - having been audited and, perhaps with major system issues - cannot be certified even if they do pay for the audit up to that point. They will (normally) be required to submit actions and evidence of effectiveness, before a certificate is issued.

BTW - Americans have an expression regarding 'assumptions'. Do they have a similar one in your country?

 

[Obstacle3]

Of course it is! And the stated assumption is, like many, incorrect.

Certification has little to do with just producing 'required paperwork' (whatever that is). Certainly some documentation of processes, procedures and records is required. Indeed, organizations receive certificates when they need to perform corrective actions - nothing said a system had to be 'perfect'. It's in the nature of continuous improvement, after all....

Furthermore, unless an organization - having been audited and, perhaps with major system issues - cannot be certified even if they do pay for the audit up to that point. They will (normally) be required to submit actions and evidence of effectiveness, before a certificate is issued.

BTW - Americans have an expression regarding 'assumptions'. Do they have a similar one in your country?

Assumption is the wrong word.

I have been led to believe by various companies that have offered to certify our business, that provided I have the necessary documentation (6 core procedures, quality manual, records) and I have at least done some audits on major issues and at least 1 management review, I will not have any problems at all meeting their minimum requirements to certify our business.

This is why the perception that it is a load of wank is true.

I will tell you next after our audit how correct my ASS YOU ME's were.

 

[harry]

Is it actually possible to fail an not get certified?.............

From a user's point, I think its the other way round. If you do your work, it is quite impossible for you to fail. The reasons are:

1. There's a 2 stage audit now. You don't fail in the first stage - you will be assessed on whether you are ready for the next stage or not. If you are not ready, you will be told to beef up the weak areas. If you know how to ask, you can get a lot more helpful infos.

2. Checklist are available for you to see if you had covered all grounds (adequacy check).

3. Facilities such as this forum are available for you to clear any doubts.

4. If you are using the service of a Consultant, they'll make sure you are ready. If you are going it alone, you would normally have the required training and thus have a good handle. Most important is that QMS are not really a big deal - common sense and good practices and if you take the time to think and plan, there shouldn't be problems.

5. Meeting the minimum requirements and be certified in the process is simple. Having an effective system is the challenge.

 

[Obstacle3]

From a user's point, I think its the other way round. If you do your work, it is quite impossible for you to fail. The reasons are:

1. There's a 2 stage audit now. You don't fail in the first stage - you will be assessed on whether you are ready for the next stage or not. If you are not ready, you will be told to beef up the weak areas. If you know how to ask, you can get a lot more helpful infos.

2. Checklist are available for you to see if you had covered all grounds (adequacy check).

3. Facilities such as this forum are available for you to clear any doubts.

4. If you are using the service of a Consultant, they'll make sure you are ready. If you are going it alone, you would normally have the required training and thus have a good handle. Most important is that QMS are not really a big deal - common sense and good practices and if you take the time to think and plan, there shouldn't be problems.

5. Meeting the minimum requirements and be certified in the process is simple. Having an effective system is the challenge.

Thanks Harry, this is the basis of us going for an audit.

My argument with senior management is that having ISO certification does not mean there is quality in processes and outputs.

Getting Management to commit to the QMS model is the biggest challenge.

I work for a big government organisation and the recommendation from an audit was to get this area of the organisation ISO certified...under the assumption this would guarantee that there was quality and control in the processes.

The main motivation here is not to actually have some quality about what we do...it is merely to get a tick in the box to close out the audit recommendation so line managers all the way through to senior management get their payrise.

A complete waste of time as far as I am concerned, but I was allocated the task to have the group certified.

We do have the basic framework there as it stands, and it has been a matter of putting together the necessary paperwork for the sake of it only which is the biggest frustration.

The same corrective and preventive actions I will be identifying and suggesting have been floating around for the last 5 years.

This is where I think the whole process is redundant and ISO loses its credibility.

If you pay the money, the independent company will no doubt certify you as it is in their interests to do so. So you have a whole heap of businesses that pay the cash to get the tick, but don't actually have any real quality in what they do. All you have to do is prove that you have a framework for continual improvement IMHO, and most of that exists on paper if management aren't committed.

 

[harry]

This is where I think the whole process is redundant and ISO loses its credibility.

Sorry, I think this is where most people get it wrong. The standard is just a 'Quality Management System' and you expect the system to work by itself? Do we blame the system when our organization is not performing?

Some thing has to go into the system before something can come out of it. What you get at the other end depends on what you put in.

With regards to audits, it is just a third party assessment of how the system is functioning and I have no experience of what is happening in dysfunctional organizations. From what I read, it seems people can have all sorts of tricks to pull wools over the eyes of auditors.

With regards to government departments, I think I have more than a fair share of bad experience over here (bureaucracy and quality doesn't seem to get along and the incentive doesn't seem to be there). I do note that some government linked corporations over here seem to have moved into a positive direction by engaging reputable private CB's instead of going back to another government linked corporation for certification.

The crux of the story is
1. We have some CB's here who are big and reputable enough not to be afraid of losing a few clients - so not all CBs are the same.
2. The market knows which CB to engage to suit their needs.
3. Systems are just systems - you have to make it work

 

[Obstacle3]

Sorry, I think this is where most people get it wrong. The standard is just a 'Quality Management System' and you expect the system to work by itself? Do we blame the system when our organization is not performing?

Some thing has to go into the system before something can come out of it. What you get at the other end depends on what you put in.

With regards to audits, it is just a third party assessment of how the system is functioning and I have no experience of what is happening in dysfunctional organizations. From what I read, it seems people can have all sorts of tricks to pull wools over the eyes of auditors.

With regards to government departments, I think I have more than a fair share of bad experience over here (bureaucracy and quality doesn't seem to get along and the incentive doesn't seem to be there). I do note that some government linked corporations over here seem to have moved into a positive direction by engaging reputable private CB's instead of going back to another government linked corporation for certification.

The crux of the story is
1. We have some CB's here who are big and reputable enough not to be afraid of losing a few clients - so not all CBs are the same.
2. The market knows which CB to engage to suit their needs.
3. Systems are just systems - you have to make it work

We are on the same side of the argument Harry, but I think the perceieved value of the actual certification has been lost because the scrutinisation of the system doesn't seem to be there.

I will guarantee you we will pass the certification, but I knwo for a fact there isnt quality in some of our key processes.

Our customers will laugh about it "Department X has ISO certification...haha shows how easy it is to get certified" etc etc.

 

[harry]

Getting Management to commit to the QMS model is the biggest challenge.

but I knwo for a fact there isnt quality in some of our key processes.

I can feel your pain - especially with all the efforts put in and the (perceived) futility. If you had been around here long enough, you will note that in many discussions, management support and commitment are identified as key but often not there.

I guess you just had to press ahead and get your job done (at least these are within your control). With regards to the eventual or expected poor performance, those are out of your control but you can still hope and pray for some changes - perhaps a new head that is committed?

This may sound theoretical but Quality is truly a journey - you are bound to face bad patches along the way.