How much can you "copy" before violating the copyright

Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#12
If the organization purchases a copy of the standard legally, and even if they use direct quotes from the standard, I don't think they are in conflict with any copyright laws if what they do is not for profit or resale. I could be wrong, been wrong a time or two in the past.

Bob Bonville
I agree with this. Copyright's intention is to limit the unauthorized piggyback riding of intellectual property (ownership), to help avoid loss of benefit (control pirating) and to help preserve accuracy (integrity).

I'm not a lawyer either, but my understanding of copyright is that if you legally own a copy of a tool, you can apply that tool (like a standard broken down into checklist questions) internally as long as you refrain from distributing to people who are also expected to buy their own copies.
:2cents:
You might simply ask the document's owner: the standard's governing body. They might even have a FAQ site with an answer already.
 
Z

zancky

#13
the ISO standard footnote
"All rights reserved. Unless otherwise specified, no part of this publication may be reproduced or utilized in any form or by any means, electronic or mechanical, including photocopying and microfilm, without permission in writing from either ISO at the address below or ISO's member body in the country of the requester".

therefore it seems clear no part may be reproduced/copied :bonk:
some "ISO's member bodies" even state no partial copy.

But if the intent of a standard is to standardize "words, reference tables, definitions, procedures" it is useless if I can not copy/use the "standard" statements, isn't it?

A suggestion was to just use references without statements:
I don't like customers who make a report, a questionaire or a drawing full of references to standards (may be their own standard or country standards). I can not buy and translate all the world standards and check for every updating. There are only few very important standards and I aspect all my suppliers and customers known them

One point was that we don't cause a money loss or diminishing sales.
Someone may argue that we are working for the profit of our company and we are using "their" standard to get profit and if we use just a reference they will sell more copies.

Another point was an example from New York Court.
If I remember New Your was the only state in US, and may be in the world, that declares public images/facts etc (sorry the song was "imagine") can not be copyrighted.

At the my modest opinion.
First "status quo": so many companies / entities are using "standard" statements / tables etc without copyright issue/persecutions by the "standards" organization that it is allowed the normal use to copy statements inside company own documents if it is clear that the original document has got more and relevant informations.
Second my hope: standards as knowledge should be free.

sorry if I hurt somebody, it was not my intent:(
 

Patricia Ravanello

Quite Involved in Discussions
#14
Dear Forum,

I am currently setting up a checklist for compliance to a particular standard (EN 60601-2-xx). In the checklist I write the requirement (often exactly as written in the standard) with information on how compliance is achieved.

The final version of this checklist might well be distributed to our customers on request.

Is such a checklist violating any copyrights? Do I need to completely rewrite the requirements from the standard? (or simply censor the text when distributing it)


regards
t.
I can't speak for the ISO 9000 standard, but with regard to the use of ISO/TS 16949, the AIAG (Automotive Industry Action Group) actually recommends the use of the standard in the way you appear to be using EN 60601-2-xx. On their website, they offer a tool called CQI-7T AIAG Process Identification Tool 95-2000 (see attachment below).

I have attached examples of how I have used this recommended format for interfacing the various standards into one Operating System...ISO/TS 16949, Customer-specific requirements, and ISO 14001.

It is very effective and efficient - You identify your key processes across the top, and the Standard requirements down the left, and you identify where each requirement impacts on your Operating System.

To create your Process Maps, you look down each column below the Process, and voila!... your checklist of things to make sure that you don't miss a requirement.

In the ISO 14001 attachment, you see how easy it is to integrate changes to the standard into your existing system...by adding and deleting text, and then making the required changes to the affected documents.

My personal crusade is to get the ISO organization and OEMs to release these documents in Excel format so that they don't have to be re-input to create these "evidence documents" (these matrices prove that you have integrated each requirement into your system, and as the AIAG suggests, should be given to your External Auditor at Stage 1 Audit).

I'm with you Jim...this particular usage is not copyright infringement...it's what's expected.

Patricia Ravanello
 

Attachments

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#15
NOTE: I'm certainly not a lawyer, or an expert on the subject.

I am under the impression that copyright on standards is centered more around a financial issue, than an intellectual issue. If everyone just copies the standards, it is not worth their time (financially) to develop the standard and do all the other work along with it.

First, hopefully you have purchased a copy of the standard. I would imagine somewhere there is a use/copyright statement that may give you your answer. Also, that would show you have the document in good faith, and have compensated the authors for the document. Next, I would always give credit to the source of the information. Third, if you could change even a couple of words on each line, then you have not copied verbatim, but copied the ideas within the document (which you give citation).

All else fails, you could contact a copyright lawyer, and/or the authors of the standard for a definitive answer.
This statement "Third, if you could change even a couple of words on each line, then you have not copied verbatim, but copied the ideas within the document (which you give citation)." is not accurate.

If it were, folks could copy the Harry Potter books and merely change the names of the characters and places.

Jim Wynne probably has offered the most practical advice thus far.

For ABSOLUTE surety, contact the copyright holder directly, provide a tentative copy of what you propose and ask permission.

For clarity's sake, I DID contact the copyright holders of QS 9000 via phone in the item Jim Wynne mentions and was told then, "Of course! You don't need written permission to do that."

However, that was then and this is now. The copyright holders are different and intellectual property is a much bigger concern with the advent of the internet and the unlimited copying and downloading of web-based documents. Over a number of years, I distributed fewer than 250 copies of 500 printed and certainly posed no hazard to the income of the copyright holders, since printing my Self Assessment Manual on high quality glossy paper with color photographs made EACH cost more than the QS 9000 Standard on which it was based.
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#16
This statement "Third, if you could change even a couple of words on each line, then you have not copied verbatim, but copied the ideas within the document (which you give citation)." is not accurate.

If it were, folks could copy the Harry Potter books and merely change the names of the characters and places.

We're not talking about copying Harry Potter's book; we're talking about a standard. I'm saying that if you have a standard with a checklist, put the checklist in your own words. Any checklist should be adapted to the organization anyway. If a standards author did not want the checklist to be used, why did they put it in there? So to those writing standards... if you are offended by people using your checklist, don't make checklists!:tg:

But even the Harry Potter book analogy is somewhat weak. TV, movies and the like do it all the time. It's called Based on an adaptation of..... Yes, it still involves money. People want their money. If I bought the standard and made an adaptation from it, would a jury of my peers think I was wrong??

My rule... just make sure the right people get their money, and be intellectually honest.

Personally, I'll stand by the statement; As you for and your house... you can approach it however you wish. :D
 
Q

qualitytoughnut - 2010

#18
Very good question, an eye opener and debatable. I am really curious to see the outcome of ensuing debate. :argue:
You have touched upon a hornet's nest.

Quality toughnut :rolleyes:
I don't think so. In the end, in most cases, infringement has to result in harm (loss of revenue, e.g.) to the copyright owner, at least in the US. What the OP is doing is far different from making and distributing complete copies of the standard.

In a recent case in the US, a filmmaker used about 15 seconds or so of John Lennon's "Imagine" without getting prior permission, and Yoko Ono sued. A New York court found in favor of the defendants and ruled that the use of the clip constituted fair use, despite the fact that the clip was used for commercial purposes.

In the end, the courts decide what's fair use and what isn't, but the idea of a copyright holder suing a company for quoting its standard in work documents just silly (IMO).
Excuse me sir, I am not able to comprehend your response to my post. :confused: I have said:

1. "A very good question". I am praising the OP here. Do you think otherwise?
2. "An eye opener". To most IMO, since this question seldom nags the mind of the copier, at the time of copying; as to how much can he copy without infringing the copyright. Are you not with me on this?
3. Last but not the least "Debatable". The ensuing debate is bringing out very fine responses from esteemed covers, yours inclusive!

With due respect to your comment, I will be obliged if you may shed more light on this, since I am new here and have a burning desire to learn.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#19
Excuse me sir, I am not able to comprehend your response to my post. :confused: I have said:

1. "A very good question". I am praising the OP here. Do you think otherwise?
2. "An eye opener". To most IMO, since this question seldom nags the mind of the copier, at the time of copying; as to how much can he copy without infringing the copyright. Are you not with me on this?
3. Last but not the least "Debatable". The ensuing debate is bringing out very fine responses from esteemed covers, yours inclusive!

With due respect to your comment, I will be obliged if you may shed more light on this, since I am new here and have a burning desire to learn.
No offense intended; I just meant that I didn't think it was substantially debatable. Copying out clauses of the standard for different purposes is common practice, and necessary in some instances. For example, when an auditor finds a nonconforming condition, we expect her to quote the relevant clause of the standard in explaining the problem.
 
X

xjessie007

#20
Dear Forum,

I am currently setting up a checklist for compliance to a particular standard (EN 60601-2-xx). In the checklist I write the requirement (often exactly as written in the standard) with information on how compliance is achieved.

The final version of this checklist might well be distributed to our customers on request.

Is such a checklist violating any copyrights? Do I need to completely rewrite the requirements from the standard? (or simply censor the text when distributing it)

regards
t.
In my humble opinion, the text of the standard is a public document and was created for the purpose of being used and worked with throughout implementations of the standard. As such, the authors must have assumed that it will be used by copying and referencing. But I am not a lawyer. In any case, the standardization body usually provides email address where you can ask. I am sure there is some email on iso.org, where you can ask questions in case you are not sure about copyright. Try asking them and let us know.

Cheers!

http://www.maxi-pedia.com/ISO+27001
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
A How much does a complete biocompatibility test package cost? Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 1
J How much to charge for helping a startup company with initial ISO 13485 certification? Consultants and Consulting 3
M Hiring Decisions - How much effort do you put into the hiring process these days? (7/2020) Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 6
M Do I Expect Too Much of Job Candidates? Career and Occupation Discussions 33
B ISO 9001:2015 Transition: Much Easier Than You Think! Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 0
E How much a bioequivalence study will cost in the UK Pharmaceuticals (21 CFR Part 210, 21 CFR Part 211 and related Regulations) 0
P So much turnover, How to improve our training process? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 32
T ISO 9001:2008 to 2015 transition - How much work to change? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 14
P ISO 9001:2015 4.2 and 6.1 - Interested Parties - How much detail is required? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 17
I How much does an eQMS (Electronic/Software QMS) cost? Quality Assurance and Compliance Software Tools and Solutions 1
J Process Capability - How much percentage of tolerance? VDA Standards - Germany's Automotive Standards 3
W How much would it cost to setup a Quality System for a Repackager or Relabeler? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 1
G How much to pay a Freelance Six Sigma Trainer in India Six Sigma 1
M 7.5.3.2 Traceability - How much traceability is required? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 6
S How much do trainers charge typically for an Adobe Connect / WebEx based training? Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 3
kedarg6500 How much test force to be applied for Vickers hardness Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 1
D AS9100 Recertification Audits - How much in advance of the Certificate Expiration AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 9
J Sourcing a Sterile Product - Asking for supplier for too much regulatory stuff? 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 2
D IMR (Individuals and Moving Range) Chart for Short-Run SPC - How much data to include Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 1
V How much Supplier Information do I have to provide to a Customer? APQP and PPAP 6
V For an RSM, how much R-sq is good R-sq Using Minitab Software 3
R How much Protective Current Rating of Building Branch Circuit should be considered? IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 2
R How much "harder" is an ISO 13485 Registration Audit compared to ISO 9001 ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 6
M MSA - According to the formula cg how much tolerance should be put in place? Gage R&R (GR&R) and MSA (Measurement Systems Analysis) 1
Sidney Vianna The frequent flyers that flew too much... Unlimited AAirpass Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 11
E Consulting Fees - How much to charge Career and Occupation Discussions 33
A How Much Validation is needed for OTS Software - Marketing material only 21 CFR Part 820 - US FDA Quality System Regulations (QSR) 2
G How much time must pass after the first Certification Audit for us to appear in OASIS AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 8
A Advice on setting up BD Distribution Deals - How much oversight is required? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 2
K Key Employees and Officers - How much conflict is tolerable? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 19
A How much effort is needed for Certification of Class II Medical Devices ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 9
Stijloor Thank you very much!! Covegratulations 5
K Supplier Audit - How much information do we have to give them? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
Q Document Control Procedure - Too much detail? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 8
somashekar Too much data, Too little analysis - Manual Stages Assembly Shop Data Collection Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 2
R OASIS Database Fees - How much are you paying your CB? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
M Defining what is a Medical Device Accessory and what isn't - Much Confusion EU Medical Device Regulations 8
A Customer SQE - Within Specification but too much Variance Customer Complaints 7
A What to do when customer requirements are too much? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 29
D How much Tolerance do I use to Calibrate a 150kgs capacity Scale? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 5
M How much Process Description is required or needed? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 10
D How much Deviation is Acceptable when Calibrating a Hygrometer? General Measurement Device and Calibration Topics 3
L FDA Audit - How much advance notice do foreign manufacturers get? ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 4
R MSDS Sheets for Products - How much is too much - Or is there ever too much? Occupational Health & Safety Management Standards 12
T How much information should I keep in my Master Document Register? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 8
4 Change Control Systems - How much is too much? Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 10
Marc Saying "I only had one beer" doesn't mean much any more Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 3
R NQA-1 Quality Manual vs. Standard - How much should they differ Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 7
Q How much detail in DHR (Device History Record) is too much? US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 3
F How much longer can a company declare registration to ISO 9001:2000? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 21

Similar threads

Top Bottom