How Much Time Do You Spend Training A New Internal Auditor? (Poll)

How much time do you spend on training a new internal auditor?

  • 0 hours - we don't perform any training for our internal auditors

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • 1-2 hours

    Votes: 2 5.1%
  • 3-4 hours

    Votes: 3 7.7%
  • 5-8 hours

    Votes: 7 17.9%
  • 2 days

    Votes: 8 20.5%
  • 3 days

    Votes: 10 25.6%
  • 5 days

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • more than 5 days

    Votes: 7 17.9%

  • Total voters
    39
T

Tom W

#11
I have recently revamped our internal audit program for TS2 certification. I am now training two auditors in each of our three facilities to do audits on a ongoing basis. The training is actually going well, I did classroom training for a few hours then participated with them on audits walking them through the process. I will be going on their first couple audits until they are use to the process and I feel they are confident enough to go it alone. Picking the right people to be auditors is key to success.

:)
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#12
Tom W said:
I have recently revamped our internal audit program for TS2 certification. I am now training two auditors in each of our three facilities to do audits on a ongoing basis. The training is actually going well, I did classroom training for a few hours then participated with them on audits walking them through the process. I will be going on their first couple audits until they are use to the process and I feel they are confident enough to go it alone. Picking the right people to be auditors is key to success.

:)
Tom, if you supply the B3 directly, then check their CSRs. Ford and GM have some specific requirements for internal auditor training. You might also want to check with your customers (if not B3) to see if they have anything specific.
 
T

Tom W

#13
db said:
Tom, if you supply the B3 directly, then check their CSRs. Ford and GM have some specific requirements for internal auditor training. You might also want to check with your customers (if not B3) to see if they have anything specific.
Thanks, but we do not supply directly. I went to a TS2 Lead class and then used that training to build my program. I still find it amazing that the B3 assisted in the development of TS then in addition create their own requirements in addition to TS. Power struggles within the automotive industry will never go away I guess. :topic: Thanks again.
 
B

Bob_M

#14
I voted 5-8 hours. This is just classroom. We re-created our internal "auditing" classs/presentation to teach the basics of auditing. This is not limited to just ISO auditing. We wanted new people to understand the reason companies including us need to internally audit or check our system. Very little time is spent on teaching ISO. We currently view our need for auditing as a need to be able to check OUR system.

We want/need our system to work for us, our products, and our customer's requirements. We focus on how well does a procedure/WI/process/etc work for US and are we following it.

Although I have not started officially planning our next auditing "wave", we will not likely spend my effort focusing on ISO's requirements. We've already done that when we upgraded our documentation. We want our registratar to help us verify we are on track with ISO standards. (I do it as well but its not the main focus of our QMS). Our president wants our system to work for us not follow just ISO.
 
T

Tom W

#15
Bob_M said:
Although I have not started officially planning our next auditing "wave", we will not likely spend my effort focusing on ISO's requirements. We've already done that when we upgraded our documentation. We want our registratar to help us verify we are on track with ISO standards. (I do it as well but its not the main focus of our QMS). Our president wants our system to work for us not follow just ISO.
This is the old stand-by: "Say what you do, do what you say". However, you need to be reviewing the documentation to the standard to ensure compliance to the requirements. If you just audit to what you want to do, and you change the way you do something through the audit, you might be impacting the ISO requirements in your documentation.

I think we agree that you address the requirements of the standard by developing how you do things, then you just improve on how you do them.

We do the same thing, with the exception that we audit our entire system documentation once a year against each SHALL. We ensure that each shall is addressed appropriately; and also note where it is addressed for easy refernece.
 
B

Bob_M

#16
Tom W said:
This is the old stand-by: "Say what you do, do what you say". However, you need to be reviewing the documentation to the standard to ensure compliance to the requirements. If you just audit to what you want to do, and you change the way you do something through the audit, you might be impacting the ISO requirements in your documentation.

I think we agree that you address the requirements of the standard by developing how you do things, then you just improve on how you do them.

We do the same thing, with the exception that we audit our entire system documentation once a year against each SHALL. We ensure that each shall is addressed appropriately; and also note where it is addressed for easy refernece.
I know we need to be sure changes to our system still comply with ISO, but with an office of just 6 people, and currently about 18 shop people, nothing major is likely to change with out me knowing about it, especially since I'm also responsible for document control.
ISO is important to us, but ISO9k2k at its core is common business sense. Most "GOOD" businesses should be doing most of what ISO recommends. Not every business may have done it "officially" or kept very good records on certain things (corrective actions, continuous improvement, etc). Our opinion is a SMALL company should not have any problems following the ISO "structure" because most of the SHALLs and SHOULDs make perfect sense to a small company that is interested in improving itself. *shrug*
We have big Trucking QS customers that dictate to us, but we can tell they are MUCH MORE SCREWED up than we ever were, yet they think QS will keep them running as a "quality" company. Not based on what we see. *shrug*
Size/desire really does matter when it comes to Auditing and following a standard's intent.
*puts away soapbox* ;)
 
T

Tom W

#17
Well, I think we agree then. :confused: It sounds like you take a similar approach to the registration scheme that I do; we do it for good business not a piece of paper on the wall. Good luck and :topic: is that a tat on your arm?
 
B

Bob_M

#18
Tom W said:
Well, I think we agree then. It sounds like you take a similar approach to the registration scheme that I do; we do it for good business not a piece of paper on the wall. Good luck and is that a tat on your arm?
Please don't get me wrong, we don't do it JUST for the paper on the wall, but our President/Owner would have us running his business in about the same way that ISO9k2k requires us to. President/most manager were not please with the QMS based on the 1994 standard (different Quality Manager). That WAS just a piece of paper in OUR eyes. The QMS we've built around ISO9k2k is the type of SYSTEM we need to keep our business running. But now that the system is built, its LESS about satisfying ISO and more about keeping the QMS and business running. Its kind of the similar to comparing 94 elements to 2k's process approach.

We believe/hope our overall PROCESS is good now, we no long have to have 20 procedures that we MUST have. We have procedures now that we NEED to have.

*shrug* :truce:

Yes we want to keep it simple, that is why our training is relatively short and focused more on the "processes" and not the elements. I guess we really have grasped the major concepts of ISO9k2k, even if it may not totally appears so on PAPER.

:topic: No tatoos on my body, that is Metallica's Logo head from the Binge and Purge box set. :) With the dripping blood it would be a cool tatoo!
 
G

Greg B

#19
Hi guys,

My auditors do a three day external course followed by in house training on our systems, paperwork, reporting (database etc) and management requirements (what do mgmt want from the audits, what is the business plan and objectives for quality etc). They then do an quality refresher on our system and company (culture, processes etc). We then go and perform a few audits together and then sit back and review our performances (mine included). It is good feedback.
Craig Cochrane has just posted a new generic audit checklist. It ties in with new auditors.
You can find it at:
http://elsmar.com/Forums/showpost.php?p=65486

(PS: Thanks to all of those people that replied to my post so now I am able to use hyperlinks - hope it works) :eek:

Greg B :bigwave:
 
#20
Greg B said:
(PS: Thanks to all of those people that replied to my post so now I am able to use hyperlinks - hope it works) :eek:
Yep, it works just fine. :agree: Mind you, it is often better to link to the entire thread rather than to just a single post.

/Claes
 
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