How Much Time Do You Spend Training A New Internal Auditor? (Poll)

How much time do you spend on training a new internal auditor?

  • 0 hours - we don't perform any training for our internal auditors

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • 1-2 hours

    Votes: 2 5.1%
  • 3-4 hours

    Votes: 3 7.7%
  • 5-8 hours

    Votes: 7 17.9%
  • 2 days

    Votes: 8 20.5%
  • 3 days

    Votes: 10 25.6%
  • 5 days

    Votes: 1 2.6%
  • more than 5 days

    Votes: 7 17.9%

  • Total voters
    39
I

isochick

#41
I just completed an external audit of our QMS and our auditor said that ISO suggests one internal auditor to every 10 employees. I've been involved in ISO 9001:2000 for six years and have never seen a guideline from ISO regarding this. Am I missing something? How many Internal Auditors do you all have?

Thanks to you all! I learn everyday from you!:thanx:
 
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Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#42
I just completed an external audit of our QMS and our auditor said that ISO suggests one internal auditor to every 10 employees. I've been involved in ISO 9001:2000 for six years and have never seen a guideline from ISO regarding this. Am I missing something? How many Internal Auditors do you all have?

Thanks to you all! I learn everyday from you!:thanx:
Hello isochick,

Based on what I see at my Clients; on an average, about 10% of the employees are serving on the internal audit team. Works great.

There is no rule or guideline in place.

Stijloor.
 
#43
I just completed an external audit of our QMS and our auditor said that ISO suggests one internal auditor to every 10 employees. I've been involved in ISO 9001:2000 for six years and have never seen a guideline from ISO regarding this. Am I missing something? How many Internal Auditors do you all have?

Thanks to you all! I learn everyday from you!:thanx:
Must have been a joker, huh! This is another one of those 'legend in its own lifetime' aspects of ISO that makes me laugh - at the person who said it!! Any canned number, 10 people, 10%, whatever, is taking an important issue and reducing it to a pure number without consideration of the other equally important facets of planning for audits and auditors.

You have to consider the audit program as a whole, how many audits you're going to need to do, how long they're going to take to perform, the frequency and the kind of personal competencies necessary - just hanging a number of heads on it and saying it works is just dangerous, IMHO. Sure it's a difficult thing to consider, it takes real creativity to run an effective audit program and you have an opportunity to stop doing the things that don't work - like plucking some numer out of thin air - and demonstrate to your management how to manage the quality system correctly!!

Let's face it, if your boss knew some of this stuff and you went to him/her and said '10%', how would you justify it to them?...............and saying that you heard it from a consultant/auditor isn't going to cut it, especially since you're going to have to justify spending training $$$ on that many people!
 
C

chaosweary

#44
This is a pretty subjective poll. To train someone just to perform an audit might only take a few hours to a day. But to train someone to do an "effective and efficient" audit, use all of the audit tools, understand what the standards mean and how to apply them. How to conduct opening and closing meetings, and use the internal corrective action system, report writing, audit planning short and long term according risk...it takes much longer than the 5 days...Heck we have managers and auditors that have been auditing to the 9001 for years and still can't agree on interpretation and application! :D
I guess the meaning I am going for can be taken from the movie 300, anyone can fight but who is the professional / expert warrior...How many of the people auditing are really auditors, where it is their profession, they live, eat and breathe it everyday?
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#45
I also provide three days classroom training (with test) and at least the performance of three internal audits with of course the Lead Internal Auditor.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#46
I just completed an external audit of our QMS and our auditor said that ISO suggests one internal auditor to every 10 employees. I've been involved in ISO 9001:2000 for six years and have never seen a guideline from ISO regarding this. Am I missing something? How many Internal Auditors do you all have?

Thanks to you all! I learn everyday from you!:thanx:
I agree with Andy. Way too many variables to boil it down to one number. Though, I'm sure 10% would be just right for some companies. You have to decide. BTW, too much rotation may just make auditors inexperienced and ineffective.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#47
I agree with Andy. Way too many variables to boil it down to one number. Though, I'm sure 10% would be just right for some companies. You have to decide. BTW, too much rotation may just make auditors inexperienced and ineffective.
The biggest benefit of having a "bigger bench" of internal auditors is that the auditors (who are obviously also employees) develop a much higher level of understanding and appreciation of how the company really works. They will understand much better how other processes work and how they affect others.

Some of my Clients rotate internal auditors over a 3-year time period. Eventually, most of the employees will have served as internal auditors.

Stijloor.
 

SteelMaiden

Super Moderator
Super Moderator
#48
We never stop training, from the moment the initial auditing class is over, each audit is a learning experience. We sit down after an audit and disect what happened in order to pass along any gained knowledge to the rest of the team.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#49
We never stop training, from the moment the initial auditing class is over, each audit is a learning experience. We sit down after an audit and disect what happened in order to pass along any gained knowledge to the rest of the team.
That is an excellent approach. I have done that with some consulting clients, and it doubles the effectiveness of regular training. :applause:
 
#50
Did anyone look at the poll results? A full 35% of auditors only get a few hours of training!!! Wow, no wonder organizations see little benefit from their audit programs.........(see the poll about this topic):rolleyes:

I wonder if there's any correlation? Or did they already have competent auditors on staff who didn't need much training:notme:;)
 
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