How to conduct internal audits?

T

TQCon

#41
We did by discussing them in a workshop with all Internal Auditors. E.g. Why should there be a document? E.g. Complex operation, no back-up person, could cause quality problems if not done properly, etc.
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#42
We did by discussing them in a workshop with all Internal Auditors. E.g. Why should there be a document? E.g. Complex operation, no back-up person, could cause quality problems if not done properly, etc.
I understand Andy's concerns; your flowchart looks more akin to a description of a gap analysis than internal audit guidelines. If a "complex operation" needs to be documented and that fact isn't discovered until an internal audit takes place, something was seriously wrong in the beginning.
 
#43
We did by discussing them in a workshop with all Internal Auditors. E.g. Why should there be a document? E.g. Complex operation, no back-up person, could cause quality problems if not done properly, etc.
This is, IMHO, akin to asking the QC folks to help re-design product after a bunch of failures have happened.......:notme:
 
T

TQCon

#44
Not really. This is to answer the question of whether a process should be documented, or not. I.e. there may be a potential for problems if it is not documented.
 
#45
Not really. This is to answer the question of whether a process should be documented, or not. I.e. there may be a potential for problems if it is not documented.
But, with respect - that has nothing to do with the internal auditors!! And, by the time they do the audit, it's too late. Are the auditors welcomed making such comments?


It's certainly worth working with newbie auditors to ensure they have a good grasp of situations they encounter, but I can't see where that comes from your document. I've been auditing for many years in a number of roles and it's not clear to me how that flow and decisions help auditors.
 
T

TQCon

#46
As a trained Auditor, could you try to create a decision tree of your own? You must go thru one, mentally. Bear in mind that I'm using this on trained Internal Auditors that have been doing it "the old way", i.e. just verifying that people are following their procedures.

Also, any comments about the COPs (process flow map)?

Thanks.
 
#47
As a trained Auditor, could you try to create a decision tree of your own? You must go thru one, mentally. Bear in mind that I'm using this on trained Internal Auditors that have been doing it "the old way", i.e. just verifying that people are following their procedures.

Also, any comments about the COPs (process flow map)?

Thanks.
I hate flowcharts with a passion - it's not personal, they're great if you need to think like a computer 0,1's but I can't reconcile them to running a business when life isn't like that!

It sounds like we might have a fundamentally different philosophy when it comes to audits and how to go about them, so I can talk you through it, but it wouldn't work well to type it here, otherwise I'd be pleased to share!
 
K

Keith Childers

#48
If YOU are the one who wrote your Quality Manual, then I don not see how YOU can audit your Quality Manual.
The requirement is that the selection of auditors shall ensure objectivity and impartiality, and that auditors shall not audit their own work.
 
#49
If YOU are the one who wrote your Quality Manual, then I don not see how YOU can audit your Quality Manual.
The requirement is that the selection of auditors shall ensure objectivity and impartiality, and that auditors shall not audit their own work.
Well, if it just says what ISO says, then it's not his work!

Who wrote something has less bearing on the scheme of things compared to who's implementing it! Sure he could get all bent out of shape if he wrote something that's not being done the way he wrote it, but hey, that's one of the reasons we do audits! So he would then need to find out why.......
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#50
If YOU are the one who wrote your Quality Manual, then I don not see how YOU can audit your Quality Manual.
The requirement is that the selection of auditors shall ensure objectivity and impartiality, and that auditors shall not audit their own work.
I've never heard of an internal auditor auditing the QM. That's the CB's job.
 
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