How to Determine Mandays for Different Plants?

#11
Well, of course not! How funny of you to both use a bizarre example!

However, don't the words 'scope' and 'criteria' play a key role here? Before we run off assigning an internal audit based on an external audit criterion - head count - wouldn't it be important for an audit manager - like Ajit - to consider the 'focus' of the audit? If the objective is to diagnose and isolate a process issue and the scope of the audit is just two or three work stations on a line with 100 people, what would the auditor be doing taking a 'representative sample of those 100 people?

No need to answer gentlemen - we're not going to agree. I'd hoped that people reading here might get to see a different approach discussed.....
 
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Sidney Vianna

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#12
If the objective is to diagnose and isolate a process issue and the scope of the audit is just two or three work stations on a line with 100 people, what would the auditor be doing taking a 'representative sample of those 100 people?
Sorry, but I will answer. This audit objective you offered has NOTHING to do with an internal audit, which, in generic terms is supposed to assess the system, which is comprised of several processes, macro and micro ones.

I have no idea of where you pull this scenario (of diagnosing and isolating a process issue) from, based on the discussion so far. We are talking "internal audits" as in 8.2.2 of ISO 9001.
 
#13
Sorry, but I will answer. This audit objective you offered has NOTHING to do with an internal audit, which, in generic terms is supposed to assess the system, which is comprised of several processes, macro and micro ones.

I have no idea of where you pull this scenario (of diagnosing and isolating a process issue) from, based on the discussion so far. We are talking "internal audits" as in 8.2.2 of ISO 9001.
Sidney, I am not shackled by the notion that internal audits have to consider the (whole) system! Why can't an internal audit be used to isolate and diagnose a process issue - based on 'status and importance'? I fear you have looked at audits for too long through the eyes of a CB auditor.......
 

Sidney Vianna

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#14
Sidney, I am not shackled by the notion that internal audits have to consider the (whole) system!
Unfortunately those pesky requirements of the standards refer to internal audits of the system.

We agree on prioritizing, focusing on higher risk processes, but the standard does not let us ignore the rest of the system.
 
#15
Unfortunately those pesky requirements of the standards refer to internal audits of the system.

We agree on prioritizing, focusing on higher risk processes, but the standard does not let us ignore the rest of the system.
But it doesn't say they have to be done as one honkin' big audit, everything at the same time! It can be done as a number of smaller focused audits of various processes can't it? Can't it be done to isolate and diagnose parts of a process too? I see nothing in the standard's requirements at odds with anything I've proposed.........
 
#16
Let's also not lose sight of the fact that for many organizations the logistics of organizing (only) system wide audits is impractical. Indeed, since you bring up 'the requirements', internal audits aren't required to consider ISO per se, which is, of course, the (minimum) focus of a CB - that's the criteria for the audit!

The internal audits focus is on the organization's system so, in my experience and honest opinion, (I've given a great deal of thought to this very subject over many years as a consultant and trainer, BTW) using a CB's criteria for how long an audit will take is inappropriate.

However, we may disagree, I'd still like to see, here, your reasons for justifying it - for other users' sake. It's easy to keep taking a contrary position, however, with your experience wouldn't it be helpful to Ajit - and others - to know what your selection of the criterion is based on?
 

Ajit Basrur

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#17
I got up this morning and saw that the discussion going on is very informative and in the similar way, I challenge myself on the total number of days.

Just a bit more curious - do CBs fix the mandays per the table in the guideline and add / subtract accordingly ? Is there any other criteria on which the mandays could be determined ?
 
#18
I got up this morning and saw that the discussion going on is very informative and in the similar way, I challenge myself on the total number of days.

Just a bit more curious - do CBs fix the mandays per the table in the guideline and add / subtract accordingly ? Is there any other criteria on which the mandays could be determined ?
Essentially, Ajit, yes. There are some modifiers according to industry specific rules which go with ISO/TS 16949 and AS9100 for example. This recognizes that there additional requirements which may need a 'deeper dive' and therefore consume more time.

In my experience of guiding clients through audit program management, as well as being an audit program manager, SQA and CB supervising auditor, I don't believe that you can find something predefined. I'd strongly suggest you could and should base it on your own observations and then create table to guide.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#19
Internal audit? Take what time it takes for the audit to achieve whatever the objective is.

If the amount of time you have been using has been effective for you, then continue to march......

If the amount of time you have been using hasn't been giving you the results you need........change the time!

This ain't quantum mechanics we're talking about here.
 

Ajit Basrur

Staff member
Admin
#20
Internal audit? Take what time it takes for the audit to achieve whatever the objective is.

If the amount of time you have been using has been effective for you, then continue to march......

If the amount of time you have been using hasn't been giving you the results you need........change the time!

This ain't quantum mechanics we're talking about here.
Hi Randy, you make a point here :D
 
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