How to determine the values of k1, k2, k3 in Gage R&R

Miner

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#11
Yew Jin is exactly correct. MSA 2nd ed used 5.15 in the formula, and 3rd ed simplified the formula by removing it and using the new constants.
 
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A

Alex.G

#12
So if I understand, my excel sheet was wrong before because we used the constant K without dividing by 5.15, now it should be ok.
I tried with the value from MSA reference manual 3rd edition example p113 and I get the same result.
So means my excel is good, right?
Someone can fastly review it for me to confirm ?

thanks a lot
 

antoine.dias

Quite Involved in Discussions
#13
The problem is not in your Excel.

If you compare the 2nd version results with the 3rd version there is no significant difference when calculating in relation to the total variation TV.

The problem starts when you calculate in relation to the tolerance.
In version 2 you can (have to) use the tolerance width, in version 3 you have to divide the tolerance by 6 ( See page 116 in the MSA manual )

Hope this helps,

Best regards,

Antoine
 
A

Alex.G

#14
ok i found it :

TV = 5.15 (process variation/6) in 2nd edition

and TV =process variation/6 in 3rd edition,

So that mean I have to divide TV = sqrt(GRR^2+PV^2) by 5.15, right?

thanks everybody I think I will have a perfect excelsheet soon,:thanx:
 
A

Alex.G

#15
I read again the book and if I understand, it is only in the case, my analysis is based on the tolerance I have to divided by 6. In my case it is on Total variation, There is something I can't understand, if the form in the 2nd edition is based on total variation and 3rd edition too, i don't have to change the excel sheet except for the constant. but change the constant change considerably the result.
That drive me crazy :frust: :bonk:
Some one can please review fastly my excel.

--> I noticed if I replace in my excel the value from 3rd edition p113, I obtain the result from p114 of 3rd edition, so my excel is good?

Thanks for your help
 
A

Atul Khandekar

#16
Alex, I quickly scanned your Excel sheet, there doesn't seem to be anything wrong with this.

As regards %Tol, IMO, there should not be a very BIG difference between 2nd and 3rd editions.

The 2nd edition directly calculated the value of the "Full spread" of GRR error, which was 5.15* GRR_Standard_Deviation. %Tolerance = Tolerance / (Full GRR) = (Tol)/(5.15*GRR_Stdev) = (Tol/5.15) / (GRR_Stdev)

In the third edition we calculate Standard_deviation of GRR (and also EV,AV, TV,PV etc). % Tol = Tolerance / (Full GRR), where full GRR spread is 6*GRR_StDev. This is the same as (Tol)/(6*GRR_Stdev) = (Tol/6) / (GRR_Stdev)

The difference in %Tol will only be to the extent of using 6 in place of 5.15.
 
A

Alex.G

#17
thank you very much everybody, I clearly see the problem and there is no problem actually.

EV, AV, GRR... are actually a division of product of constant (explaination : TV is sqrt (GRR^2+PV^2) GRR is small compare to PV so TV depend mostly on PV which is Rp*K3 so EV/TV is mainly R*K1/(Rp*K3) so if the constant or in the same configuration, both divided by 5.15 everything should be ok )

Am I right?

In any case I really appreciate your help everybody :applause: :thanks:
 
C

conker

#19
I am terribly new to this thing.

Is there any site that provides a spreadsheet for all the K1 K2 K3 values? All the examples I find has the values already loaded into the spreadsheet, which stops me from making any sense of it.
 
#20
Can someone please look this over and tell me what I am doing wrong here?
Running Minitab Xbar /R @ 6.0s, this comes up different even though I have changed the excel sheet from 5.15 to 6.0.

Excel sheet still matches closely with Minitab ran at 5.15S.

Trying to provide a very basic format for Quality lab to use, any help would be appreciated.
 

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