How to differentiate between monitoring and measurement devices?

#1
How to differentiate the monitoring and measurement? Also,the differences between the monitoring devices and measuring devices?
 
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Duke Okes

#2
Re: How to defferentiate the monitoring and measurement?

How to defferentiate the monitoring and measurement? Also,the differences between the monitoring devices and measuring devices?
Technically they're the same, but one way to think about it is for a heat treat process an organization would monitor the temperature in the oven, and measure the hardness of the part after it has been treated. However, one must measure in order to monitor, and measuring parts is monitoring how well the process is meeting specs. Semantics.
 

CalRich

Involved In Discussions
#3
Re: How to differentiate the monitoring and measurement?

You may have gages to monitor inputs in your process, (temperature, pressure, time). These help you monitor machine set up. The outputs of the process are measured (with calibrated gages). From your measurements, you determine compliance to specifications.
 

CalRich

Involved In Discussions
#5
Re: How to differentiate the monitoring and measurement?

Why would you want to differentiate between the two types?
9001 & 16949 mention both in 7.6, so there must be a need to make the distinction, eh?

Main reason that comes to my mind is to avoid spending money needlessly on controls (e.g. calibration) for items that simply monitor a process. We have some test equipment that uses hydraulics. A pressure gauge is installed, but we don't have it calibrated as it is not related to measurement of the final product. (or even components)
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#6
Re: How to differentiate the monitoring and measurement?

9001 & 16949 mention both in 7.6, so there must be a need to make the distinction, eh?
Nope! I think you are giving standard writers credit for too much subtlety. The reason for listing 2 types is probably so people are aware that both types have to be managed - there is no distinction written in to standard requirements for how you deal with each 'type' if your 'monitoring' equipment is used to 'measure.'

Main reason that comes to my mind is to avoid spending money needlessly on controls (e.g. calibration) for items that simply monitor a process. We have some test equipment that uses hydraulics. A pressure gauge is installed, but we don't have it calibrated as it is not related to measurement of the final product. (or even components)
I'm not sure what your test equipment is doing - perhaps you can enlighten us. Certainly if the pressure gauge is not used as part of a measurement activity then it doesn't have to be calibrated but I'm still not sure what this equipment is doing and how that relates to the monitoring / measuring question. :confused:
 

CalRich

Involved In Discussions
#7
Re: How to differentiate the monitoring and measurement?

Nope! I think you are giving standard writers credit for too much subtlety. The reason for listing 2 types is probably so people are aware that both types have to be managed - there is no distinction written in to standard requirements for how you deal with each 'type' if your 'monitoring' equipment is used to 'measure.'
True, the standards mention both to indicate that both have to be managed. Then stated is that, "...where necessary to ensure valid results, measuring equipment shall..." (emphasis added). These requirements do not relate to monitoring equipment.
I'm not sure what your test equipment is doing - perhaps you can enlighten us. Certainly if the pressure gauge is not used as part of a measurement activity then it doesn't have to be calibrated but I'm still not sure what this equipment is doing and how that relates to the monitoring / measuring question. :confused:
The equipment has a hydraulic arm that moves in and out for a product-specific destructive test. The pressure gauge is there to monitor the pressure in case it should fail to operate correctly.
Let's say we've making a valve in a factory, and we have to measure the pressure that the relief opens at. We would want to use a pressure gauge as well, but this is a calibrated measuring device.

On the whole, managers should understand what in their process is being monitored and what is being measured, don't you agree?
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#8
Re: How to differentiate the monitoring and measurement?

True, the standards mention both to indicate that both have to be managed. Then stated is that, "...where necessary to ensure valid results, measuring equipment shall..." (emphasis added). These requirements do not relate to monitoring equipment.
OK. Here's the nub. What monitoring equipment is there out there that doesn't measure? I can't think of an example.

The equipment has a hydraulic arm that moves in and out for a product-specific destructive test. The pressure gauge is there to monitor the pressure in case it should fail to operate correctly.
Let's say we've making a valve in a factory, and we have to measure the pressure that the relief opens at. We would want to use a pressure gauge as well, but this is a calibrated measuring device.
So would you class this equipment as monitoring equipment? Are there any criteria for the destructive test that require measurement such as the gauge pressure at point of failure?

On the whole, managers should understand what in their process is being monitored and what is being measured, don't you agree?
Again if the great and good from the cove can give them a steer as what we mean by the two terms then all well and good.

If however they are two catch all terms then we just need to take out the jargon and present managers with a case for each piece of equipment as to what needs to be done.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#9
Re: How to differentiate the monitoring and measurement devices?

Friends,

Once upon a time (pre-2000) when the standards writers were working to take the manufacturing bias out of the standard, there was a pesky term "inspection and test" (remember?). ISO 9001:2000 had to be made "generic and applicable to all types of organizations...."

The term that was coined is now called "monitoring and measurement." Simply because if you consider for example a service, that activity is not "inspected and tested" similar to a piece of hardware. So if you look at it from that angle, it all makes sense. No need to make it more complicated. Let common sense prevail! :agree1:

Stijloor.
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#10
Re: How to differentiate the monitoring and measurement devices?

Thanks, Stijloor - a good point well made. I agree that 2000 onwards there is more of a general approach to application of 9k to manufacturing and service.
Friends,

Once upon a time (pre-2000) when the standards writers were working to take the manufacturing bias out of the standard, there was a pesky term "inspection and test" (remember?). ISO 9001:2000 had to be made "generic and applicable to all types of organizations...."

The term that was coined is now called "monitoring and measurement." Simply because if you consider for example a service, that activity is not "inspected and tested" similar to a piece of hardware. So if you look at it from that angle, it all makes sense. No need to make it more complicated. Let common sense prevail! :agree1:

Stijloor.
There is, however, still a clause 7.6 about what you do with monitoring and measuring equipment. The debate we are having here is
  1. Is there a difference between monitoring equipment and measuring equipment, and
  2. What are the implications for quality professionals in how you treat them
Now my standpoint is there is no meaningful difference between the two terms. CalRich has a different view - as far as I am aware we are having a very civilized discussion - unless anyone else sees it different?
 
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