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How to get corporate buy-in when you don't care anymore?

Le Chiffre

Quite Involved in Discussions
#11
This is a common problem... several strategies come to mind.

Firstly I try to remove the term "ISO" from discussions to avoid the impression that ISO is imposing this costly workload and refer to it as "our QMS". This shifts the responsibility from them (ISO) to us (the company). What's important is our QMS works for us (and also happens to be inline with ISO standards).

Secondly, in scenarios like this I revert to scare tactics somewhat and show why we need certification - which customers require it or what business we'd miss out on if we didn't have a certificate.

Finally, have you considered switching registrars? If the current one has lost respect with your president, talk to others to find a better match. This may mean you end up spending more for a top tier registrar but with their help you need to change top management's impression of the whole QMS.
 
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Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
#12
FWIW:
I read "Cheese" essentially for free while I had coffee and a Danish in the mega-bookstore in a nearby shopping mall.

An interesting allegory, but certainly not a roadmap to cure the "blahs" that often set in on many of us from time to time.

From your comments so far in this thread (plus one in the "how far to commute" thread), it sounds like you really need to have your batteries recharged and get a whole new perspective about the concept of an organization as an "organism," a living, breathing sentient creature.

As I see life, we are always presented with choices. Rarely do we ALWAYS make the right choices, but the real mark of successful, happy folks is how quickly they recognize when they have made a wrong choice and then move to some sort of "corrective action." lf FMEA (failure mode & effects analysis) were 100% effective, there would never be a need for Corrective Action, would there?

It seems to me some of our Covers have already given some tips, one being to look at the ISO QMS as being the subject of "kaizen" (Gee! I detest that word, but many folks bitten by the Lean bug seem to need hearing it on a regular basis, not realizing Lean started in the USA without weird "talisman" words.)

First of all, ISO third party registration is only necessary if customers in the supply chain demand it. The basic concepts of documentation, employee and management involvement, continual improvement, etc. are really the hallmarks of any effective business system. Does your organization require the "paper" to satisfy any customer requirement? If not, stop paying for one, but that DOES NOT mean trashing the concepts of an ISO management system.

Regardless whether the "paper" is required, it sounds as if the documentation aspect of the organization could be streamlined. Our task as professional quality folk is to show the benefits to the bottom line of ANY quality initiative. Rarely is there ANY documentation system more than a few years old WITHOUT continual improvement which cannot be streamlined to be more efficient and (usually) less expensive to maintain.

If you decide to hang around this organization, start a new thread to discuss how this streamlining might be accomplished. We have many wonderful threads already existing which discuss the documentation aspect of a QMS. Take some time to research some of them before starting a new thread. I particularly like the "4 page Quality Manual" thread
(FAQ Thread: Poll: QMS (Quality Management System) Manual - The Boss Wants a 4 Page Manual - What to Do?  )
for the insights it gives on how folks view documentation.

Ultimately, the first thing you need to work on is your own attitude toward the organization and the task ahead. Sometimes, you may need to examine things going on in your personal life to determine how they are affecting your professional life. Often, though, there are things going on in our professional life that are affecting our personal life and the cycle then becomes vicious. In the same manner I wouldn't hesitate to call in a consultant to help me in some aspect of running an organization instead of taking time to learn how to do it myself, I would never hesitate to get a consultant to help me figure out something in my personal life (physical, mental, social) instead of trying to figure out how to do it all by myself. If I break a bone, I go to someone else for an xray and bone setting rather than build or buy my own xray machine, so why wouldn't it make sense to do something similar for an emotional or social break?
 
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Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#13
Such good comments so far.

First, let's understand that the QMS is supposed to serve the organization, not the other way around. Getting the certificate is just validation.

The ISO/whatever standard is supposed to be a framework for how a functional, robust and well rounded business system is built and maintained. It doesn't have to be a nuclear endeavor to work. Remember the Mousetrap game? It doesn't need to look like that.

Since management sounds like it is interested in paring off the fat, and you started your question by describing it as a "massively documented QMS - trust me, it's sickening" behemoth, it actually sounds like you and your management are of like minds. Why not fix the thing instead of trying to get buy-in on a ball and chain that is the existing one?

It sounds like a good time to take each document and ask what details can be taken out. Maybe a bookish procedure can be turned into a scripted flow chart. Some can be just obsoleted. 218 metrics might be reduced to 70 or less. "Weight test" (an old Navy term) what is not value-added. It sounds like a simpler system would improve your life.

Now as for the registrar: I do not know what it was he told your boss that he objected to, but he should not have been telling you guys how to run your business. The registrar's job is to verify we're sticking to our own plans within the ISO framework, and little more. If your boss doesn't want to have something pesky like a calibration program, such a thing could lead to confrontation, otherwise I wonder if it is a personality thing.

I hope this helps!
 

BradM

Staff member
Admin
#14
FWIW:
I read "Cheese" essentially for free while I had coffee and a Danish in the mega-bookstore in a nearby shopping mall.

An interesting allegory, but certainly not a roadmap to cure the "blahs" that often set in on many of us from time to time.
Point well taken, to an extent. It depends on what is the underlying stimulus for the "blahs". I would recommend that book, among many others.:D
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#15
Needless to say I'm feeling pointless and extremely unmotivated - there was another post asking if you'd leave QA if you had the opportunity to which I said no way...well that's changed significantly!! Any suggestions would be fantastic! I'd do the research myself...but I just dont care enough :(
Pazuzu,

You need to do some serious "soul searching" and determine if it's even worth it! There comes a point in life where you need to decide if there's any future for you in this organization. I left a corporate job (with an excellent salary and great perks) because all my efforts did not make any difference. I could not stand the non-committed management and the politics anymore. I believe that money can never make up for misery. I left the organization (21 years ago) and never looked back.

I am sure that some of my Fellow Covers had the same experience. I wish you strength my friend!

Stijloor.
 
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J

JaneB

#16
Pazuzu, I'm with Stijloor.

If you really don't care any more, and the fire has gone out for you in this organisation, then I doubt there's anything you can do to 'get corporate buy-in'. It's a futile pursuit for you, and perhaps time to seek greener pastures.

It's soul-deadening staying somewhere where you don't feel motivated or appreciated. I've been in those places too - and it's miserable and misery-making. And like Stijloor, I too left, looking for something better.

I've never regretted that for one single second - a minor regret is not doing it sooner.

For example, yesterday I spent time in one of the brightest organisations it's been my pleasure to visit. Full of passionate, committed people who love what they do, and have done a brilliant job in building a fast-moving, dynamic and very, very forward thinking organisation. (They have decided to get 9001 - they're about 85% there already, & the gaps aren't that significant).

All this, and I get paid to help them get there as well. How good is that? :lol:
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#17
Re: How to but corporate buy-in when you dont care anymore

Not in so many words. The prez got pretty heated with our ext. auditor once because of some recommendations (areas of opportunity). After the auditor left the prez said almost verbatim "why the hell do I pay this guy $xxxxx to tell me how to run my business? I have strategies, we (mgmt) have strategies, and we have lean as our improvement practice. That's the most expensive piece of paper (the ISO cert.) I've ever had."

It's not our system in particular they dont like, it's the impression that ISO is a domineering slave driver telling businesses how they should be run.

why do I doubt that they HAD Lean...sounds more like they thought they did. I once heard a GM exec describe how they had implemented all the Toyota principles they had learned from the joint venture....uh-huh, yeah...
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#18
Re: How to but corporate buy-in when you dont care anymore

Not really a question of my horizons. I'm a student of several methods (TPM, TQM, ISO, Lean, Kanban etc) and I have no doubt that the tools are effective. We've used some for a while and have seen tremendous positive impact. Unfortunately top mgmt doesnt see how well lean and ISO espouse to each other. Currently I am overhauling the QMS - it's just an Everest of a task - luckily there's great info in here.

I'll be sure to look that book up...sounds interesting. Thanks. :)

Sounds like a good approach. You received lots of good advice in this thread. Skinny down the QMS, it does not need to be that top-heavy. And most importantly, if there is a glimmer of sincere desire on their part to do well, determine the root cause of why they are not interested. Something has turned them off - find THAT, and fix it.
 

Caster

An Early Cover
Trusted Information Resource
#19
Now that we have a top management that is all about Lean, kaizens, and ownership thinking (which is great, dont get me wrong) they have no real time for ISO apart from just keeping the certificate to make customers happy. Needless to say I'm feeling pointless and extremely unmotivated -
Pazuzu

Wow a lot of pain in your post, hang in there, better days are coming. I too had a very bad year last year, but I made some changes and feel much better now.

Somewhere I've see a graphic that shows a ball rolling up a slope. There is a wedge keeping that ball from sliding back down hill.

The ball is labelled kaizen, the wedge is labelled ISO.

You need them both, kaizen to move ahead, systems to maintain the gain.

Wow, I've never had a registrar "tell us how to run our business", I often wish they would be more prescriptive.

In my experience they bad ones just point out the problems, take the money and leave.

The good ones leave behind dozens of good ideas from the best companies they audit (but they of course never consult). They never tell, they sell. I like them a lot, and they are rare.

Wes beat me to it <thanks>. I suggest you do a global search and replace of the word quality with the word business.

If the system uses the ISO clause numbers, remove them all.

Never again let the words quality or ISO escape from your lips

The ISO system can help us prevent the most common business mistakes. If you paid a consultant for the same information, it would cost orders of magnitude more.

So my 2 cents are become a business system manager, it makes all the difference in the World.

I'm just doing house cleaning on our system, and I'm amazed to see how "that awful word" has crept back in with the revisions made by process owners when I was too sad to fight back. That word is going to disappear again next week, I'm back in the game again.

I also support the idea of a Kaizen on the system. I did that years ago on a sales process, and <at least according to my resume> this is what happened

· 37 order entry forms immediately reduced to 25, all forms eventually replaced by computerized system specified by Kaizen team

This is a good place to be for help and support. Good luck!
 
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