How to get onto Google and Other Search Engine (Optimization) Results (SEO)

Manix

Get Involved!!!
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Hi all,

My wife has just launched a website for her small home based business, and we are trying really hard to get it onto the major search engines to get it out there and found by potential customers.

Now I have started to read up a little bit on search engine optimisation (SEO) and have got to the bit about the quantity and quality of links from other websites having a huge bearing on the search engines index and resulting results using key words!!

Now how on earth do you get these links?

Marc (I hope you read this), as Elsmar is ranked very highly, is this simply reputation and other people linking the cove from their respective websites? That is fine with such a huge wealth of information such as a forum, but what about a commercial venture. Do you need to have a massive internet word of mouth going on? OR buy the sponsored links from Google which at the prices is not really viable for such a small venture.

It really is a question on how on earth you get the huge web of links you need to get up there with these big search engines.

I hope there are plenty of internet expert covers, who can help me out!!! Even some basic understanding of the principal would be of use!!
 

Marc

Fully vaccinated are you?
Leader
... the quantity and quality of links from other websites having a huge bearing on the search engines index and resulting results using key words!!

Now how on earth do you get these links?

Marc (I hope you read this), as Elsmar is ranked very highly, is this simply reputation and other people linking the cove from their respective websites?
Yes, I believe inbound links are quite important.

You talk about getting 'inbound' links to your site (actually the main part of your post) - If you look at links to Elsmar.com, you will find that I have not actively gone out and tried to get lots of links to Elsmar, but I have never seen this as a business. I have never advertised the site with adwords or anything. (NOTE: That doesn't mean I never will...) Years ago I did put in links to here now and again in the old misc.industry.quality newsgroup, but I haven't looked at the NG in a long time.

NOTE: Over the years I have had hundreds of emails, and some phone calls, from people and companies wanting to do 'reciprocal' links. Rarely have I even answered. I don't get many emails like that any more (I suspect because of the fall of the 'value' of link farms). But - If you REALLY want a link to your site from another, email or telephone them and see if there is someone there who is willing to discuss a link.

People who like Elsmar spread links as they roam where ever it is they roam. Elsmar is linked to from several Wikipedia entries, for example, because someone who visits here put the link(s) in (I *assume* there are still links to here from several Wikipedia entries). Some people go out and try to get their domain in blogs, directories and anywhere else they can. Some SEO people are OK with this, others aren't. I prefer to let people who visit here link to Elsmar on other sites because it shows their belief that there is good information here. I'm not much of one for self promotion. I feel the best recommendation is from customers, rather than self promotion. Note: I am not saying it is 'bad'. But in large part it is where 'quality of links' comes into play. For example, I rarely visit the ASQ forums, but there are several links there (at least in some of their forums) to Elsmar that people have put in. In large part I don't often visit because my interest in discussions involving quality assurance is low. As I've gotten older it's less of a part of my working, decision making life. This is not to mention I see so many discussions here every day of the week. Point is, there are links there to here from people who recommended that someone come to Elsmar for help and/or additional information. The ASQ has a relatively good 'reputation' so that helps Elsmar. But even there, non-reciprocal inbound links are better (theoretically) than 'reciprocal' links (there are hundreds of links here to different ASQ pages so our links are 'reciprocal').

This is not to say that I have *never* 'pushed' to get Elsmar linked to on other sites. There are a couple of people I have paid in the past a few times to help me get a few good inbound links. And a few sites I have sorta a reciprocal relationship with (such as some of the links in the sidebar), but those came over the years. Remember, technically this site has been online since January 1996. But I haven't done anything like that in quite a while.

I'm not so anal as I used to be about people here posting links to other sites, but there is also (theoretically) a *negative* impact of outbound links to 'bad' sites. That is in large part why I do not allow links from people who are not recommending a web site and why we require 5 posts to put in an active link to a web site in a post. Many people come to highly ranked sites to get in a 'plug' to their web site through an active link. They have no interest in participating - They simply want a link to their site to be spidered here and for it to count as a 'positive value' link by the search engine. *CAUTION* - Link farms are 'out' these days and may do more harm than good.

If you want a site to succeed, the main thing will be to study SEO and, more important, keep at it by adding content weekly if not daily. It may take a year or two (or more) but eventually you will get up in the rankings. Putting up a few pages and just letting them sit won't get you very far. Yes, you do come up with some old stuff from the 'ancient' days that haven't been updated in years now and again in a search, but that's the 'been here a LONG time' factor kicking in.

A word of caution: You say your site is to be a commercial site... Elsmar does not bring in a livable income. If you're after money, you will probably be disappointed. There are people who DO make mega bucks from web sites, but in reality they are few and far between. If you are thinking strictly of advertising your services (as opposed to selling ads or using something like Google's AdSense), that's another matter but there is a similarity. When I think of that I think of the 'old' Yellow Pages phone companies (and now all sorts of other companies) put out. That's where something like AdWords may help.

I'll throw this in for general chatter - I had a 'handyman' come to fix a few things a week ago. I looked him up in the 'yellow pages' I have here rather than an internet search, because all I wanted was a local 'jack of all trades' for a couple of 'odd jobs'. He was nice, if talkative and did a *fair* job. Anyway, he saw all the computer equipment here and asked me about web sites. He didn't have one. I showed him a few basic things and he was immediately lost (I could see his eyes glazing over). But - I did an internet search for the fellow on his 'company' name (I forget what it was, but it was kinda unusual) and a listing for him and his company *information* (name, address, phone) did come up. The only place he advertises is in the local yellow pages, but an MFA site brought him up and it is obvious the site owner bought 'yellow pages' information (or scraped it from another site) and had software that imported yellow pages business information, put it in a database and voila - The fellow has no web page, but at least, technically, his business is indexed on the internet. There are a lot of sites like that.

I hate to say this but its sorta like the Gold Rush concept. You're a bit late to the game and there are tens of thousands (millions?) of people and web sites out there as competition. I'm not saying it cannot be done, but ... When I go to most 'webmaster' forums these days much is people crying about their Google rankings falling off, or they started a web site 2 months ago and aren't making the millions of $$$ they expected, and stuff like that. There is a lot of guessing as to what factors are most important, and there are 'gurus' who claim to know everything. Like ISO consultants, they're a dime a dozen and not so much always right. Just like here, read a lot of the threads and get a feel for what *might* be important.

Personally I rarely go to SEO sites any more. It's sorta like watching a lot of the ISO 9001 stuff here - I've been in it so long it's not really too interesting watching a thread on document control. I've been in quality assurance and business systems for over 20 years, in big companies, small companies, manufacturing companies, service companies, etc. that I've seen so many different document control systems that I'm rather burnt out on the topic.

BUT - Your being new, I would start visiting SEO sites (I'd pick at least 10 to visit daily for a while) and *considering* what people say in the threads. I say *consider* because a lot of it is hype and guessing. Some feel having the page title or main topic key words in the actual html file name, some don't think it really matters too much. I could buy a mod for the forum here that would do that, as well as make static links. But my belief is it isn't a major factor. Some feel how long the registration of the domain name is matters. It was sorta irrelevant to me because I have paid ahead over 10 years so there's no chance of interruption or other issue.

There are so many factors that it's hard to say what plays a *major* part if any. I have a major focus for the forums - Thread Titles are more important to me than anything else. But even here, how big a part this plays is debatable if you come right down to it. It depends upon who you ask.

There are some things you can do to drive people to your site, such as advertising with Google's adwords. But even there - Well, I make a point of making sure anyone who wants to put an ad in the sidebar here understands it is 'Presence' advertising. Elsmar isn't a place selling 'red rubber balls' where clicking a link will lead to a sale. Just a week ago I wrote to a potential advertiser here that I would not take the ad because it was obvious there was an expected number of click throughs, and of course some sales, and that they would see a positive ROI that they could track. I see advertisements on web sites as a way to name recognition. There is no way to accurately track a sale, for example, because someone may see a company ad here but not click through to it from here. They may see it elsewhere and - *lightbulb* - They go and take a looksie. Bottom line is, you're taking a gamble at starting what you hope will be a 'successful' business. Are you willing to invest in advertising?

As to 'Word of Mouth', I got almost all of my consulting jobs through work of mouth, including all my big jobs. People would recommend me, as happened with Motorola and Harley. I had an excellent track record and my customers recommended me to others. As to the forum, you would be surprised how people find the site, but many are recommendations. Look at peoples profiles here, in the About Me tab there is a box for "How did you find the Elsmar Cove Web Site?". Some people misunderstand (despite a more detailed explanation of what to enter in the registration page) and will put in something like "Good" or "blah". Some people put in total garbage. But, every time someone registers I get an email with the basic information they put in so I see things on a detailed level. From "someone recommended it" to "my boss said I better" to "a course instructor recommended it". Ultimately, it's all about people recommending you whether its a web site or a business. Just getting high into the serps isn't everything. It's a good thing to be high in the serps, but I get my 'good feeling' when I see someone recommended that they visit Elsmar for information.

One of the things I do recommend is that you do searches on various search engines for search terms you want to bring your site up on. Look at the sites that currently rank highly for your 'key words' and see how they are structured. Look at the page source and evaluate their header and other content. Find out what sites link to your competitors sites. These are your competitors. If they're up there in the rankings they're doing something 'right'.

Elsmar would be much more popular had I not first started out as qs9000.com and then changed to 16949.com before ending up with Elsmar.com. This site is popular because it:
1) There are some very knowledgeable people who visit who help out answering peoples questions,
2) Has relatively good, reliable content that people can use,
3) Has been online for years,
4) Has a large number of moderators who do a good job,
5) Usually people get answers to their questions relatively quickly

Debatable 'positive' factors (my bias is showing):
6) I take a very personal interest in the forum,
7) I'm here every day,
8) I keep the forum relatively well 'maintained',
9) I pay the server and related bills every month... ;) .

A last word.... There are people out there who can put up a web site and have good traffic within weeks. There are also people who literally have hundreds of web sites. Each makes a little bit every day, and as a whole they do quite well. These are people who live, eat, drink, have s*x, and sleep this stuff, and usually they have been doing it for at least several years (usually longer). But - As to SEO companies, if you consider one, read the fine print. Few, if any, will make any guarantees. I'm not saying they never help or do a good job, but be wary.

My best wishes on your success. It's usually a tough, rough road to high ranking in the serps.
 
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