How to handle MSA's (Gage R&R) for different parts?

Z

z28tt

#1
One of our aerospace customers sometimes requires a GR&R (now MSA) to be included with the SPAP/PPAP paperwork. This last time the MSA was rejected because the tolerance on the print was tighter (.010") than what was on the GR&R worksheet (.025") for the 6-7" micrometer. The GR&R Tol % is well within if you adjust the tolerance on our GR&R spreadsheet to match drawing requirements...

How do you guys handle this? Just make a master MSA worksheet that has very tight tolerances so it can be used for all situations? Or actually customize the tolerance for each specific part? Something else? Thanks!
 
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D

Dr. Electron

#2
When we first started performing GR&Rs we ended up performing a couple and then changed the tolerances to see if it would work for some of our other part numbers.

We soon learned that this was not good practice. Even with things like tubing with features as simple as ID and OD...it is not safe to apply a generic MSA for one part across the board for the rest of the parts.

For best practice, the MSA needs to be applied to each individual part number. However, this could be an issue for your field if you only produce a few of each part a year...
 
Z

z28tt

#3
When we first started performing GR&Rs we ended up performing a couple and then changed the tolerances to see if it would work for some of our other part numbers.

We soon learned that this was not good practice. Even with things like tubing with features as simple as ID and OD...it is not safe to apply a generic MSA for one part across the board for the rest of the parts.

For best practice, the MSA needs to be applied to each individual part number. However, this could be an issue for your field if you only produce a few of each part a year...
Can I ask why you guys determined this wasn't good practice? We're an AS9100 machine shop with about 500-1000 active part numbers 60-120 features per part, and lot sizes of 5-150... I could break the part numbers down into families to get the count down, as many of the parts share similar features, but even still, it's probably 150 families. We've got roughly 300 instruments in the calibration system, a dozen folks making chips, and 3 inspectors.

To do individual MSA's per part number seems like a lot of extra "busy work" without any ROI (many parts are similar), but I'm always willing to learn something new!
 
B

Bigfoot

#4
Can I ask why you guys determined this wasn't good practice? We're an AS9100 machine shop with about 500-1000 active part numbers 60-120 features per part, and lot sizes of 5-150... I could break the part numbers down into families to get the count down, as many of the parts share similar features, but even still, it's probably 150 families. We've got roughly 300 instruments in the calibration system, a dozen folks making chips, and 3 inspectors.

To do individual MSA's per part number seems like a lot of extra "busy work" without any ROI (many parts are similar), but I'm always willing to learn something new!
:agree1:
We do our MSA studies based on the measurement device family & size. We have 0-1" micrometers and use small pieces across the range of the device without a specified tolerance. Where a part specific tolerance is requested / required we have always used +/- 0.001" as this covers the products we produce. Typical results yeild less than 10% GRR. We do the same for our calipers using 0-6"; 0-12:; 0-24"; & 0-40" studies. These are done annually using production operators to perform the measurements while the Quality Tech records their readings. Again we typically see less than 10% GRR.
 
D

Dr. Electron

#5
Can I ask why you guys determined this wasn't good practice? We're an AS9100 machine shop with about 500-1000 active part numbers 60-120 features per part, and lot sizes of 5-150... I could break the part numbers down into families to get the count down, as many of the parts share similar features, but even still, it's probably 150 families. We've got roughly 300 instruments in the calibration system, a dozen folks making chips, and 3 inspectors.
We have many different ways to measure our parts and depending on the part and the machine, there are many different results that can be produced. I think what the previous poster touched upon is similar to the way we ended up going about it (so as to save from hours and hours of busy work). We've determined that color of part, magnification, and lighting are the biggest contributors of variability. Here we use things like comparators, toolmaker's microscopes and vision systems far more than rulers and calipers. Still, the same principles apply to rulers and calipers. A .25 inch part with a ±.001" tolerance and an 8 inch part with ±.001" tolerance are very different parts and should be treated with separate GR&Rs. Finding out your ranges for the different type of measurement equipment would save you from having to do each individual part. We were able to conduct a DOE to generate our ranges...that might help you as well.
 
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