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How to Identify and Evaluate Environmental Aspects and Impacts

T

tarheels4 - 2007

#41
Paul Simpson said:
This confirms my problems with a lot of posters to the cove. You get a lot of requests for checklists, example manuals, (in this case) aspects evaluation and the only purpose they serve is to pull the wool over the auditor's eyes and get through an audit.

It really fills my soul with joy to see these posts in a forum I support. What do others think?:confused:
In this case the auditor may also have been a part of the charade.

Unfortunately it seems a lot of EMS auditors are "going through the motions" on 3rd party audits. Maybe they don't want to loose all of their customers?
 
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Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#42
Lowest common denominator

tarheels4 said:
In this case the auditor may also have been a part of the charade.

Unfortunately it seems a lot of EMS auditors are "going through the motions" on 3rd party audits. Maybe they don't want to loose all of their customers?
My concerns exactly - so we now have less than optimal certification following on from below par implementation based on imperfect understanding - makes you feel proud to have helped out doesn't it.
 
T

tarheels4 - 2007

#43
Paul Simpson said:
My concerns exactly - so we now have less than optimal certification following on from below par implementation based on imperfect understanding - makes you feel proud to have helped out doesn't it.
We are all being used and cheapened. It makes you feel violated to some degree. And you don't even get money for it.:ca: I am ready for a Bud.
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#44
Beer o'clock

tarheels4 said:
We are all being used and cheapened. It makes you feel violated to some degree. And you don't even get money for it.:ca: I am ready for a Bud.
Sorry Tarheels you'll have to wait - some of us will be breaking in 40 minutes. Unfortunately I have a three hour drive to my beer!
 
J

JWenmeekers

#45
I think we have to blame the ‘evolution’.

Many companies were working for years to deliver ‘quality products’, or what they believe to be a quality product.

Suddenly, for whatever reason, but sometimes just because ‘it is in and looks good’, customers are asking for a ‘certificate’.

Then the rush starts: what do we need, how we have to do this, search for an example, copy it, make it such that it fits the purpose, get the **** paper and lets go on with our business.

If we see this as a consultant, what can we do ? Say they have the wrong approach, which it is ? And how to go around this ?. Sometimes the only thing we can do is go for the ‘paper on the wall’ idea. I always refused to work in that direction and was replaced by another consultant in a blink of an eye….
What if it is clear for the auditor, but the ‘system’ is totally in accordance with the standard, technically. Refuse the certificate because the ‘attitude’ toward the standard is wrong ? Don’t think this will work. Although, in the long run the company will loose, meanwhile there is income for the registrar, it’s their business.

On the other hand, taking a training ‘to do it right’, is sometimes too expensive for the company, if they look at it in terms of ROI at short terms.
So they’re looking for examples to copy and to implement.
You can’t blame them, but it’s not the right way of doing ‘quality’.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#46
Paul Simpson said:
My concerns exactly - so we now have less than optimal certification following on from below par implementation based on imperfect understanding - makes you feel proud to have helped out doesn't it.

Sounds like it's a zero sum game, to me. An organization which perhaps shouldn't have been certified, was registered by an auditor who perhaps shouldn't have credentials. They cancel each other out don't they?:rolleyes:

At a minimum, they deserve each other. Their customers, at least the good ones, will find them out soon enough. ... the "stuff" floats to the top, eventually.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#47
I wish they did

hjilling said:
Sounds like it's a zero sum game, to me. An organization which perhaps shouldn't have been certified, was registered by an auditor who perhaps shouldn't have credentials. They cancel each other out don't they?:rolleyes:
Unfortunately not. As long as accreditation and certification are perceived as attributes and the users do not differentiate the players, a good chunk of the certification market will just be a façade: You pretend to implement a management system, someones pretend to audit the system, but the certificate is "real" with all the fancy official logos on it.
I find amusing that ANAB issues a document stating that "certification should mean something". Why don't they simply pull the accreditation plug on those CB's that issue certificates that "don't mean anything"?
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#48
Sidney Vianna said:
I find amusing that ANAB issues a document stating that "certification should mean something". Why don't they simply pull the accreditation plug on those CB's that issue certificates that "don't mean anything"?
It would seem to mean more, if they were just a tad more aggressive in policing their CB's. It seems they can get away with murder without any action. But the witness auditors nitpick the smallest nit.

Oh well, I'm not terribly worried about it. Quality eventually wins out, but it takes a long time sometimes. I even think the witness auditors generally have become more appropriate in their field audits. Not as sure about the office audits, however.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#49
Of course you then have the issue of some of the witness auditors being people that the CB's wouldn't hire.

I personally know of one that was a RAB witness auditor, and couldn't explain the difference between an aspect or impact during an EMS implementation course I was asked to witness by an "accredited" training organization (the Imp course was of course not accredited but the org was an accredited training provider for 9-14 and some other things). The thing was this clod presented business cards that had RAB all over them and wound up asking me to help answer student questions. This was of course a couple of years ago (he probably has more responsibility now)
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#50
Randy said:
...I personally know of one that was a RAB witness auditor, and couldn't explain the difference between an aspect or impact....

You know, it is frustrating. In the last few weeks I have personally spent thousands of dollars getting training and testing so I can renew my TS credentials. It probably cost $5000 plus, if I factor in the lost audit days as well.

Each year, I spend several thousand to renew or retrain in one standard or another...just so some clod like that can witness me, and verify whether I am competent. Because they want to improve the integrity of the programs.

You would think they could do a better job policing themselves.
 
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