How to Internal Audit a Quality department - ISO 9001:2000 14001:2004 OHSAS18001:1999

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Antonio Vieira

Involved - Posts
Trusted Information Resource
#12
Sorry, but I don’t buy this!

There are no special requirements for doing internal audits. If you are already a quality management systems auditor, if you need to audit internally any environment or safety management system all you need to have is some experience with the related standards.
The degree of experience you need to have is only defined by your organization, although it needs to be consistent...
Remember just this; those training courses you are going to attend in these standards are going to be given by someone that had self training on the subject. Why don’t you do it also?
Study the standards and read important information on those fields.
I give may case, I’m finishing a master degree in the safety area, but before I started it I had already studied by myself OHSAS 18001/2 and also several other related standards. When it came the part of safety management systems and risk management, I could easily say that I knew much more about that than the teacher present.

The idea of getting DNV or Lloyds to perform an audit there and “see the way they do it”, also I don’t think is a good idea. You’re going to spend money and a registration audit has little to compare with and internal audit.

My humble suggestion:
- Read all environmental and safety policies and procedures and make a good check list based on them. Make the audit based on them!
This audit could not be “the perfect one”, but after making it in 2 or 3 different places of your company, and well studding the standards, you’ll be able to understand your QES system and make good audits!:agree1:
 

gard2372

Quite Involved in Discussions
#13
Antonio, While you make some decent points, I have to question some of your statements.

António Vieira said:
Sorry, but I don’t buy this!

There are no special requirements for doing internal audits. If you are already a quality management systems auditor, if you need to audit internally any environment or safety management system all you need to have is some experience with the related standards. Those training courses you are going to attend in these standards are going to be given by someone that had self training on the subject. I’m finishing a master degree in the safety area, but before I started it I had already studied by myself OHSAS 18001/2 and also several other related standards. When it came the part of safety management systems and risk management, I could easily say that I knew much more about that than the teacher present.!:agree1:
While I claim no guru or extensive knowledge base in 14 or 18, I'm simply applying tried and true common sense for this particular situation.:rolleyes:

You're assuming that he has experience in the other QMS standards, when he said he only had experience in 9001. There are a lot of specialized things to consider other that what is printed on paper. (Many of those things come with experience & observations) Just ask Randy or Sidney. While being self taught is a great idea, we have to remember those of us who may not be so adept in self- teaching as you have been and may require some classroom time with a qualified instructor. In your case where you claim to know more than the person teaching the class great for you, you have been blessed with above average knowledge! But you are the exception not the rule.

A consultant who can conduct a surveillance audit may still be cheaper that the full registration audit which is what he wants, to only do an internal audit.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#14
António Vieira said:
Sorry, but I don’t buy this!

There are no special requirements for doing internal audits. If you are already a quality management systems auditor, if you need to audit internally any environment or safety management system all you need to have is some experience with the related standards.
The degree of experience you need to have is only defined by your organization, although it needs to be consistent...
Remember just this; those training courses you are going to attend in these standards are going to be given by someone that had self training on the subject. Why don’t you do it also?
Study the standards and read important information on those fields.
I give may case, I’m finishing a master degree in the safety area, but before I started it I had already studied by myself OHSAS 18001/2 and also several other related standards. When it came the part of safety management systems and risk management, I could easily say that I knew much more about that than the teacher present.

The idea of getting DNV or Lloyds to perform an audit there and “see the way they do it”, also I don’t think is a good idea. You’re going to spend money and a registration audit has little to compare with and internal audit.

My humble suggestion:
- Read all environmental and safety policies and procedures and make a good check list based on them. Make the audit based on them!
This audit could not be “the perfect one”, but after making it in 2 or 3 different places of your company, and well studding the standards, you’ll be able to understand your QES system and make good audits!:agree1:

I agree with you for not really needing the 3rd Party to perform the audit and becoming familiar with the requirements, however I do have one or two questions regarding your experience:

I think I read that you are finishing up your Master's, but with all of that "Theory", how much actual/practical experience do you have? To say that you "I could easily say that I knew much more about that than the teacher present," can you honestly say that? Just curious.


Coury Ferguson
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#15
Coury Ferguson said:
I agree with you for not really needing the 3rd Party to perform the audit and becoming familiar with the requirements, however I do have one or two questions regarding your experience:

I think I read that you are finishing up your Master's, but with all of that "Theory", how much actual/practical experience do you have? To say that you "I could easily say that I knew much more about that than the teacher present," can you honestly say that? Just curious.


Coury Ferguson

I have had over 20 years in Quality Management Systems (9001, QS,AS) and Internal Auditing, but I am no expert (close but not there yet). I have taken external training by the ASQ for internal auditing. I would suggest that taking some external classes can only benefit you. I still stand firm on not needing the 3rd Party Registrar though.

Antonio, I would like to see some information regarding my questions posed.


Coury Ferguson
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#17
António Vieira said:
Sorry, but I don’t buy this!

There are no special requirements for doing internal audits. If you are already a quality management systems auditor, if you need to audit internally any environment or safety management system all you need to have is some experience with the related standards.
The degree of experience you need to have is only defined by your organization, although it needs to be consistent...
Remember just this; those training courses you are going to attend in these standards are going to be given by someone that had self training on the subject. Why don’t you do it also?
Study the standards and read important information on those fields.
I give may case, I’m finishing a master degree in the safety area, but before I started it I had already studied by myself OHSAS 18001/2 and also several other related standards. When it came the part of safety management systems and risk management, I could easily say that I knew much more about that than the teacher present.

The idea of getting DNV or Lloyds to perform an audit there and “see the way they do it”, also I don’t think is a good idea. You’re going to spend money and a registration audit has little to compare with and internal audit.

My humble suggestion:
- Read all environmental and safety policies and procedures and make a good check list based on them. Make the audit based on them!
This audit could not be “the perfect one”, but after making it in 2 or 3 different places of your company, and well studding the standards, you’ll be able to understand your QES system and make good audits!:agree1:

Well excuse the "H" out of me!:censor: I seem to remember some minor bits of language in clauses 6.2.2 (9001), 4.4.2 (14001 & 18001) concerning competence and the effect that a lack of it can play with respective systems and all that apparent non-essentail garbage you apparently don't pay attention to there on your side of the lake.

Hey QHSEer don't listen to me because I'm apparently not up to the speed Antonio is on auditing, ISO 9001, ISO 14001 or OHSAS 18001. I mean, what do I really know about the subject anyway?:frust: :frust:
 

Antonio Vieira

Involved - Posts
Trusted Information Resource
#18
Randy

I’m not the owner of the absolute true!
In fact, no one is...
I didn’t mean to offend your knowledge, which I’m sure it is remarkable and much larger than mine.:yes:

What I’m trying to explain, is that in the largest majority of cases, self training about management standards, is much better than attending to training courses.
Where did the trainer got the technical knowledge to speak about the subject?
Probably at the same source of information we could do it by ourselves...
For example, here in Portugal one month after a new management standard appears, you start to find advertisements of training courses related with the standard. Who taught the trainer?
It happened to me. During the beginning of 2000, as a trainer, I when to several places to speak about “the new standard”...
As you know, I don’t belong to ISO TC 176...

In order of keeping the necessary competence to perform quality audits, in the middle of 2000, the registrar I work for, told me I needed to attend an internal training course about the “new standard”.
According to their idea, I should attend to an internal training course of one week.
The trainer they had, was a guy that 6 months before that, was a trainee of mine in a similar training action...
I didn’t go there and I’m still performing audits for the same registrar...

In the case of internal audits necessary competence, we can always state the experience or if we want to “shoot our own foot”, refer what’s written at ISO 19011...

As a consultant, now I’m trying to train all of my customer’s quality managers in internal auditing, so that they create a net of internal auditors. This way they audit each others organizations and “get played” with an audit made in their own organization by the auditee. And so on...

The first audits were not very good, but who was the one that made right the first time...

Best regards:bigwave:
AV
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#19
You're surrendering too early Antonio. As for offending...you didn't, I can't be, you challenged and I love a challenge.

Keep challenging:agree1:
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#20
António Vieira said:
...What I’m trying to explain, is that in the largest majority of cases, self training about management standards, is much better than attending to training courses....

...According to their idea, I should attend to an internal training course of one week. The trainer they had, was a guy that 6 months before that, was a trainee of mine in a similar training action... I didn’t go there and I’m still performing audits for the same registrar...

As a consultant, now I’m trying to train all of my customer’s quality managers in internal auditing...

...The first audits were not very good, but who was the one that made right the first time...

Gee, it sounds like you are contradicting your own advice?:confused:

If it is better to teach yourself, why should companies to hire you to train them?

I disagree. Certainly, some people can effectively teach themselves. But, in most cases, learning from someone who is skillful in a topic is a much faster, more effective method.

The only key thing is, we must be more selective in who we choose. Choose someone qualified, not just someone cheap...
 
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