Hunting and Fishing Thread - With Poll

[Craig H.]

Hey, IE, someone voted in the poll and bumped this thread. Can you post pictures now?

On the home front it is now into firearms deer season here. I have been a few times. T.J., the 14 year old son of one of our members, has been waiting a few years to shoot his first buck. He wanted a good one, and has been shooting just does for meat. His family eats almost no beef, but has deer many nights a week for supper. Anyway, after passing up many decent bucks his patience was finally rewarded opening morning, from a stand that I helped build. 150 yard shot at a moving 8-point that anyone would be proud of. Priceless.

 

[AEROSPACEQA_MANAGER]

Wow I do my best QA work while fighting a bass...it reminds me of why I get up every morning pull my hair into a ponytail, put on my heels, and insure the work is tip-top so the props spin and they can fly another day...hope the rest of you like wetting a line and pulling in the big ones too! Annie

 

[Jim Wynne]

Wow I do my best QA work while fighting a bass...it reminds me of why I get up every morning pull my hair into a ponytail, put on my heels, and insure the work is tip-top so the props spin and they can fly another day...hope the rest of you like wetting a line and pulling in the big ones too! Annie

Welcome to the Cove . Let me tell you, I was very relieved when I got to the end of your post and saw that your name is Annie, and not Bill or Fred :mg: .

 

[AEROSPACEQA_MANAGER]

Hmmm...I could have been named Billie Jeane or Frankie or Fredrica but alas 'Annie' is what my QA friends call me! Sooo when will we have the first annual 'Cove' fishing get-together?

 

[Wes Bucey]

I live across the street from a 50 or 60 acre lake, operated by our county Forest Preserve (Independence Grove), well-stocked with gamefish, but, alas, it is strictly a "catch and release" proposition and you still require a license if you are over 16. This means we have to buy fish to eat. We could always go a few miles east and charter a boat (or a fleet!) to fish for Coho Salmon in Lake Michigan.

They do have a bar in the clubhouse, though!

go to maps.google.com and enter
16400 W Buckley Rd, Libertyville, IL, 60048
switch to the satellite view and check out the lake - boats and canoes available (protected and guarded swimming beach, too!)

 

[Carl Keller]

South Jersey Coastal Ducks update.

Opening day we had 15 (mostly teal, a few woodies and blacks) between 3 of us at 9:30 am at 10:30 our day was done.

3 hunts since then would not keep anyone well fed to say the least. One or two here and there.

It has been beautiful out on the marsh though.

Carl-

 

[Wes Bucey]

Lead shot versus steel or other

In the recent news about one hunter shooting another during a quail hunting outing, I seem to have missed the item where the material of the shot which entered the wounded hunter was steel or lead.

Do any of you still use lead shot in your shells?

Here is some data about the ramifications of lead. Perhaps we could incorporate this information in a sort of FMEA (Failure Mode & Effects Analysis) for hunting and skeet/trap shooting.

Lead is different. It's an element, so it's already as broken down as it can get, and never gets less toxic in nature. And once lead is in nature, there is no easy way to get it out. It's bad enough that so many lead pellets and sinkers are already in lakes, ponds, streams, forests, and fields, but people continue to add more. Most states still allow lead to be used while hunting on non-Federal land (the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service bans its use in waterfowl hunting everywhere, and on upland hunting on all federal lands). And New Hampshire is the only state that currently bans lead sinkers.
Lead gets into bodies three main ways.

• Getting shot: Pellets for shot guns and bullets for rifles used to virtually always be made of lead. When something is shot but not killed, the pellets or slugs that remain in their bodies can lead to low-grade, chronic lead poisoning, especially if a piece of lead is near or in a bone.
• Breathing it: Some industries such as smelting and battery manufacturing release lead into the air through smokestacks. When gasoline for cars used to contain lead, and the gasoline was burned to power the engine, the lead escaped in smoke through the exhaust pipe, and went into the air, too. The air we breathe isn't usually contaminated enough to cause direct problems.
• Swallowing it:
  There are several ways lead can be swallowed:

1. Rain washes lead in the air down to earth, where it collects in soil and water. Industrial areas and areas near highways and busy streets can get big build-ups of lead this way. And this causes household dust and the dust on playgrounds in these areas to have high levels of lead. Swallowing these particles can cause low-grade, chronic lead poisoning. That's a big reason why cars made since 1973 have had to be able to run on lead-free gas, and why leaded gas for cars is now banned in Canada and the US.
2. Lead used to be a common ingredient in house paints, and is still found in some paints. Paint often peels and chips in places like windowsills. Babies and toddlers swallowing leaded paint can get chronic lead poisoning. Broken-down paint chips also contribute to the lead in dust.
3. Glazes used in pottery often contain lead. This is okay for pottery made as artwork, but not for dishes or birdbaths! Many kinds of food and beverages dissolve small amounts of the glaze, and the person or bird can eat or drink the lead, too! If this happens often enough, it can lead to chronic lead poisoning.
4. Shotgun pellets at the bottom of lakes, ponds, and streams. Most of the shot used in duck and goose hunting doesn't actually hit anything, and rains down to earth. Every year duck hunters left about 6,000 TONS of lead shot in United States ponds, lakes and rivers before the US Fish and Wildlife Service banned its use in waterfowl hunting. And lead shot is still legal for use in "upland game hunting" (for grouse, pheasants, squirrels, etc.).
   
   This lead on the bottom of ponds, lakes and rivers is picked up by fish, and also by dabbling ducks, geese, and swans, who pick up a wide variety of tiny plants and animals on the bottom, sift out the water and mud through their strainer-type bills, and swallow the particles of food, tiny stones, and lead. The stones and lead remain in their gizzards (a chamber of their stomachs), helping them to grind their food. The stones in the gizzard slowly wear away into often-useful minerals. Lead is so heavy it sits on the bottom of the stomach for a long time, slowly but steadily dissolving and entering directly into the blood stream, causing acute lead poisoning.
   
   In forests and fields lead shot can be picked up by grouse, sparrows, cranes, and other ground feeders. Of course ducks, geese, and swans pick up many more pellets than do upland birds and other animals, but it's still a problem in heavily hunted areas. Lead in the stomachs of these animals also causes acute lead poisoning.
   
   Lead sinkers lost by anglers sit on the bottom of the water, too, and are also picked up by fish, waterfowl, and loons. Sinkers are larger than pellets, so a single sinker can cause far more dangerous lead levels, and acute poisoning, than a single pellet. Lead shot is now banned for waterfowl hunting, but lead sinkers are still legal almost everywhere, except the state of New Hampshire, which banned its use in 2000.
5. Predators and scavengers that eat prey containing lead shot often eat some of the lead pellets, which cause acute lead poisoning. Eagles and hawks often kill or scavenge on ducks killed or crippled by lead shot, and loons pick up fish that have swallowed lead shot.
6. Scavengers eating deer that were shot but got away before dying also pick up the lead slugs in the bodies, causing acute lead poisoning.

 

[Craig H.]

OK, Wes, I am going to take this at face value, but I have to wonder who this "expert" is. Why no attribution?

Because it is so hard, and wears parts so quickly (and can be dangerous in certain situations), to my knowledge steel shot (and other, non-lead material) is mainly used for waterfowl. I have never heard of any other hunting application.

It would be impractical for bullets, IMO, because whatever the bullet is made of has to be malleable enough to grab the grooves in the barrel that impart spin to the bullet. If a predator did bite into a rifled slug, 00 buckshot, or a .30 caliber bullet, I would think that the hardness of the material would make them want to spit it out, but that is just a guess.

Again, who wrote this? Please be VERY careful who you listen to when reading/talking about hunting and fishing. There are groups like the HSUS (Humane Society of the United States) that sound like dog pound organizations that are really animal rights, um, folks. We also need to be careful, as when certain, um, types are involved it goes from zero to highly political faster than a speeding bullet.

That said, I would rather not eat/drink/take a breath of lead.

 

[Wes Bucey]

OK, Wes, I am going to take this at face value, but I have to wonder who this "expert" is. Why no attribution?

Because it is so hard, and wears parts so quickly (and can be dangerous in certain situations), to my knowledge steel shot (and other, non-lead material) is mainly used for waterfowl. I have never heard of any other hunting application.

It would be impractical for bullets, IMO, because whatever the bullet is made of has to be malleable enough to grab the grooves in the barrel that impart spin to the bullet. If a predator did bite into a rifled slug, 00 buckshot, or a .30 caliber bullet, I would think that the hardness of the material would make them want to spit it out, but that is just a guess.

Again, who wrote this? Please be VERY careful who you listen to when reading/talking about hunting and fishing. There are groups like the HSUS (Humane Society of the United States) that sound like dog pound organizations that are really animal rights, um, folks. We also need to be careful, as when certain, um, types are involved it goes from zero to highly political faster than a speeding bullet.

That said, I would rather not eat/drink/take a breath of lead.

I'm a "semi-crusader" on this topic, but my research is based on science data from EPA and other government sources like Fish & Wildlife, etc.
http://www.nationalatlas.gov/mld/wlleadt.html
talks about a map locating bird deaths due to lead poisoning
The raw data is available here http://www.nationalatlas.gov/metadata/wlleadt.faq.html
The State of Michigan Dept of Natural Resources takes up the topic at
http://www.michigan.gov/dnr/0,1607,7-153-10370_12150_12220-26676--,00.html
It includes this quote

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[Text Version]

A aLead Poisoning


[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif][SIZE=-1]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Description[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Lead poisoning has been recognized as a mortality factor in waterfowl since the late 1800's. Lead poisoning cases today are either the result of ingestion of spent lead shot or fishing sinkers and jig heads during normal feeding activities. When the lead reaches the acidic environment of the gizzard (ducks, geese and swans) or the ventriculus (loons), it is worn down, dissolved, and absorbed into body tissues. Once the lead reaches toxic levels in the tissues, muscle paralysis and associated complications result in death.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Distribution[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Ducks, geese, swans and loons are the animals most commonly affected by lead ingestion, however, upland game birds including mourning doves, wild turkeys, pheasants, and quail are occasionally affected. Lead poisoning has also been noted in small mammals (raccoon) and raptors, presumably from the ingestion of lead contaminated prey. In ducks, geese and swans, lead poisoning is most commonly seen during migration in the late fall and early spring. In heavily contaminated areas, cases may be seen at any time of year.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Transmission and Development[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]When lead is ingested, the pellets, sinkers, or jig heads lie in the gizzard or ventriculus and begin to erode. The lead enters the circulatory system and mimics the movement of calcium. It becomes stored within the bones and is excreted via the bile into the feces.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Clinical Signs and Pathology[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Clinical signs of lead poisoning include lowered food intake, weakness, weight loss, drooping wings, inability to fly, and green watery diarrhea. In ducks, geese, and swans, necropsy may reveal an enlarged gallbladder, impacted proventriculus, and a cracked, green-stained, peeling gizzard lining, with or without lead shot present. In loons, the ventriculus lining may be stained dark green and will have the piece of lead present. Blood smears may reveal a slight anemia. On microscopic examination, acid-fast inclusion bodies may be seen in kidney tubular epithelial cells.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]In waterfowl a dose as small as 1 pellet can result in anemia, while a lethal dose of 5 or more pellets can result in death due to heart attack or muscle paralysis. Occasionally cephalic edema (swollen head) may be seen in Canada geese.[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]It has been proposed that the mortality directly due to lead poisoning may be secondary to the losses due to "non-lethal" effects of lead such as reproductive problems, increased susceptibility to disease and infection, and increased predation due to anemia and weakened muscles.[/FONT]
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The guy who writes the "Straight Dope" column has addressed the issue of lead fishing weights here
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mfishsinkers.html

If one merely wants to address the topic of the toxicity of lead in the environment, here's a place to start:
http://www.sis.nlm.nih.gov/enviro/lead.html

I, personally, may be a kook on the topic, but my data is not plucked out of thin air or massaged to reach a pre-conceived conclusion. Others look at similar data and arrive at similar conclusions. I know that in my first forty years of upland bird and waterfowl shooting, I put hundreds, maybe thousands of pounds of lead shot into the environment until I saw my first dead goose wasted away by lead poisoning when I took a tour of a traveling Fish & Wildlife exhibit. I haven't used lead shot since.

 

[Craig H.]

Wes,

Ok. I am one of the "kooks" who think that anyone caught hunting waterfowl with lead shot should have shotguns confiscated, licenses revoked for a few years and the like, so we are not too far apart on this, I think. As far as lead sinkers and jig heads, I have begun to see non-lead shot, and will use it if it is available. As an aside, I went to Wheeler Wildlife preserve near Decatur AL a few weeks ago and learned how bobbing ducks, feeding on the bottom, can injest lead sinkers and shot, so I will seek out more of the non-lead sinkers (BTW, Wheeler is WORTH THE TRIP).

So, we have several sources of lead, one of which (lead shot for waterfowl) has been illegal for some time now (I know, there are slobs that own shotguns and will use lead shot, though). This to me begs the questions: Which source is the worst offender? Where should we start looking for the most effective approach to the problem?

Some folks think that hunters and fishermen (fisherfolks?) are somehow anti-enviromnent. In most cases this is so far from the truth to be laughable, if some of the results of this misconception were not so detrimental.