Hybrid vehicles (cars) are getting Down Under

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#11
Just an interesting aside:
If you take out taxes, a gallon of distilled water costs more than a gallon of regular, unleaded gasoline in my town. (Distilled water, store brand, no "hype" about minerals, etc. like Vichy or Perrier) Average shelf price is $1.19 USD.

Second aside:
I live in an area surrounded by millionaires to the southeast, "horse country" to the north, farms to the west, white collar managers and business owners to the southwest. The millionaires drive Chevys and Ferraris, horse folks have Lexus SUV to haul horse trailers, managers who live in condos have Hummers, farmers have pickups and Tauruses, and I drive a "soccer mom" minivan.

Sure is a wide variety of vehicles on the road every day! (I note the gasoline price of the only station within a mile of the "manager condo complex" charges 10 cents a gallon more than the three stations of the same brand near me. Those Hummer folk get hosed coming and going.)
 
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C

Charmed

#12
A couple more against hybrids

Carl Keller said:
If consumers bought based on MPG, hybrids would be selling just fine. But they don't.

My current perception of Hybrids is they
Cost more
Perform worse
Look ugly

Are they more efficient and will they save money in fuel costs? Sure, but not enough to offset the negatives.


Carl-
Dear Carl:

If mpg is the only criterion hybrids would be selling like hot potatoes! I just got into a new car, two weeks ago. It was a very special situation and a decision had to be made in a big hurry. There was no time to think about hybrids and their advantages. Here's a couple more negatives I keep hearing about the hybrids.

Repair costs (likely to be higher)

Resale value (likely to be much lower)

But, if gasoline prices keep going up, this perception might start changing. The difference in the gallons of fuel consumed (when we compare 55 mpg with a 25 mpg or even 30 mpg vehicle) is quite significant in the long run. If gasoline prices remain high, Toyota and Honda may have a real "game changer". Ford Escape will be on the market soon and GM and Chrysler having their hybrid SUVs coming soon.

But, one never knows. Gasoline prices, $/gal, may go up because mpg is increasing!

Charmed :)
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#13
Carl Keller said:
If consumers bought based on MPG, hybrids would be selling just fine. But they don't.

Here is the problem, when you go car shopping, do you take a list of the highest MPG cars and start looking? No, most of us do the following in order:


Vehicle type -I'm looking for a Car/Minivan/Pickup/SUV
Manufacturer preference (I'm a Dodge fan)
Style -Which vehicle of that type do I think looks nice
Performance -Which vehicle on my list has highest horsepower/performance
Price -What is the best bang for my buck
MPG performance - Can I live with the mpg

My current perception of Hybrids is they
Cost more
Perform worse
Look ugly
As more are made, and as more models become available (including a small SUV model) and some time passes we can expect some bugs to be worked out.

As for electricity prices, don't the hybrids generate their own electricity while the car is running on gas?

I hope when I can afford another car, I hope I have some decent hybrid choices because they sound promising.
 
C

Carl Keller

#14
Jennifer,

There are more than "Bugs" to work out.

They are very slow and to get the 0-60 acceleration up, they try to make them as light as possible, which brings up safety concerns. (The single largest determining factor in a crash is vehicle weight, not the number of airbags or whether you were wearing your seatbelt)

Yes, they create/store electricity when running on gasoline, but the objective is to run less on gasoline and more on electric power. It isn't "free", it takes more fuel to run the generator.

They continue to cost substantially more.

They are UGLY.

They have high voltage running through them and are filled with acid batteries. (a safety concern)

Charmed,
Take a look at the performance specs on the Escape hybrid.


They will develop over time and work out the "Bugs" but it is going to be quite a while before they have a higher performance, asthetic, cost effective model lineup.

Carl-
 
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C

Charmed

#15
China and India too

Jennifer Kirley said:
What does this mean?

Seems to me that since China has become a larger consumer, we simply are depleting our supply at an unreasonable rate. It's finite, we cannot just claim a discount for some reason or another, and call that good enough.

What is the "better way"?
Dear Jennifer:

Either we find new sources of energy (gasoline, hydrogen, biomass, solar, wind, etc.), or the pressure on gasoline prices and energy conservation will continue to increase, not because of the Middle East and what is going on there but because China and India are industrializing rapidly and their energy requirements are growing exponentially.

So, yes, we will need some good hybrid choices soon. China and India, and perhaps, Europe (very high fuel prices, due to the tax component) might become the proving ground for the new technology. Toyota and Honda might soon be testing their technology there. Have a great weekend.

Charmed :) :thanx:
 

Tim Folkerts

Super Moderator
#16
caution.gif I think I got a little carried away...


omg.gif IMHO water, energy, and population growth are going to be the defining issues of the next generation, and there are no easy answers to any of the problems. Most politicians don't seem to be able to look ahead farther than the next election and make the difficult choices. ranting.gif

Many of the posts here - and many politicians - make energy in general and gas prices in specific seem like a simple question of supply & demand, or controlling the right oil-producing regions, or saving a few mpg with your next car. frustrated.gif It isn't a question of "if" oil prices will go up, but "how much" and "how fast"!

The cover story in "National Geographic" a month ago was "The End of Cheap Oil" (and other recent issues addressed population and water issues). When you consider a) the population continues to rise each year b) developing nations are demanding more & more oil to raise their standard of living and c) proven reserves will last less than 100 years at current rates, then it can be no surprise that something has to give! The "National Geographic" article predicted anything from a few years to a few decades as the "end of cheap oil". And, yes, $2/gal is considered "cheap oil".

Even doubling gas mileage and turning down the AC will only postpone things for a few years.

Alternate energy sources are great, but limited. Currently the US energy needs are supplied by (1999, US DoE)
  • 40% oil
  • 23% natural gas
  • 21% coal
  • 8% nuclear
  • 3.5% hydro
  • 3% biomass
  • 0.5% other (solar, wind, geothermal)
Fossil fuels are 84% of the energy supply! How do you replace that??? (And how do you make plastics and fertilizer when there is no more oil?) I doubt that damming all the rivers in the country would provide enough energy. To run the country on solar panels would require (so I am told by some reliable sources) an area roughly half the state of Nevada, or roughly 3 times the area of all the paved roads in the country (made not of asphalt & concrete, but highly purified silicon). eek.gif Not to mention the challenges of storing the energy for peak demand/cloudy days/winter. The only major "new" source on the horizon is nuclear fusion, and that is still highly speculative.

The only choice seems to be some combination of 1) a major scientific breakthrough, 2) discovering that there is 10 times as much oil in the world as we thought, 3) a drastic decrease in world population, or 4) a drastic decrease in standard of living.


Well, I've ranted enough for one day. I hope I'm wrong....

Tim F
 
C

Charmed

#17
Carl Keller said:
Charmed,

Take a look at the performance specs on the Escape hybrid.

Carl-
Dear Carl:

You are right about Hybrid performance specs. Yes, I have looked at that and studied the acceleration characteristics. But, as with any new technology, the hybrid is now going through its learning curve. Toyota is in this for the long haul. And, if they capture the No. 1 spot in the world soon, as many analysts predict, they will have the momentum.

Game changers have a way of sneaking up on you. Anyway, that's just my humble opinion of this. Have a nice weekend.

Charmed :) :thanx: :thanx: :thanx:
 
C

Charmed

#18
The only choice seems to be some combination of 1) a major scientific breakthrough, 2) discovering that there is 10 times as much oil in the world as we thought, 3) a drastic decrease in world population, or 4) a drastic decrease in standard of living.


Well, I've ranted enough for one day. I hope I'm wrong....

Tim F

Dear Tim F:

A major scientific breakthrough will do it. That's what I am betting on.

Charmed :)
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#19
I read somewhere that about 55% of our oil consumption goes to automobiles. Is this true? If so, we can indeed make an impact with wider use of new technology in cars and power generation.

I'm now going to make a political statement. If we can spend multiple scores of billions on wars, we ought to be able to press the case for better fuel consumption technology investment. But I will not launch into a discussion about why that is not happening. I'll simply say, as benignly as I can, that our leadership is not showing the kind of strategic planning I'd like to see.

I can't afford a new car right now, but when I can, I will seriously consider the hybrids. By the time I can afford it, I will have more choices.

Americans, as consumers are spoiled rotten. It seems a car must be powerful: go from 0-60 in 7 seconds, and be snappy-looking to be taken seriously. As a nation we are not yet in enough pain to make widespread consumer choices like happened in the 70's. That might yet occur, but until then so many of us will still shop with our hormones and not our heads.

I think Hummers are ugly, and sports cars are gratuitous.

In Maine, I will always be at the mercy of people driving their tanks too fast in bad weather, and passing other drivers on a curve at night. I probably wouldn't survive a wreck with them in my Stratus so I am not too worried about the hybrid's weight. I suspect when my number is pulled, it will be my time to go in whichever vehicle I'm driving.

I am interested to see the Saturn VUE come out in a hybrid.

The Prius rated highly in Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Popular Science and is North American Car of the Year. Sounds okay to me.
 
C

Charmed

#20
With Airbags, A Saturn, and a Hybrid

Jennifer Kirley said:
I read somewhere that about 55% of our oil consumption goes to automobiles. Is this true? If so, we can indeed make an impact with wider use of new technology in cars and power generation.

I'm now going to make a political statement. ... I can't afford a new car right now, but when I can, I will seriously consider the hybrids.

In Maine, I will always be at the mercy of people driving their tanks too fast in bad weather, and passing other drivers on a curve at night. I probably wouldn't survive a wreck with them in my Stratus so I am not too worried about the hybrid's weight. I suspect when my number is pulled, it will be my time to go in whichever vehicle I'm driving.

I am interested to see the Saturn VUE come out in a hybrid.

The Prius rated highly in Motor Trend, Car and Driver, Popular Science and is North American Car of the Year. Sounds okay to me.
Dear Jennifer:

Right now, I can tell you this much. As long as your Saturn VUE hybrid is equipped with airbags, you will do just fine. I say that after a recent experience, where my wife totaled her car in an accident less than a month ago.

The difference between 55 mph and 25 mph, or even 30 mph, is about 2000 gallons, if the car is driven for 100,000 miles, as I see many Covers talking about. My own Chrysler van has more than 75,000 miles already. That's a good chunk of money, even at $1/gal or $1.50/gal, or $1.75/gal. But, the technology is still being tested. Like any other new technology, there is a learning curve. By the time you are ready to get into a new car, I am sure something will be to your liking.

Just wanted to cheer you up a bit in Maine. (I used to visit Rangely, Maine, over the summers, with a classmate, whose family had a summer cabin there.) Have a great weekend.

Charmed :)
 
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