Hydrogen Embrittlement Testing - How is this being handled?

Ron Rompen

Trusted Information Resource
#1
How many others out there are involved in HE testing?

Part of the revamping of the GM plating standards has included the reference to SAE/USCAR-5 (Hydrogen Embrittlement Avoidance) and SAE/USCAR-7 (Hydrogen Embrittlement Testing). Both of these documents contain the words 'shall test', indicating that the testing is no longer optional.

How is this being handled? We supply (relatively) flat, stamped parts, many of which are heat treated and then plated. My plating suppliers are unwilling or unable to perform HE testing, I do not have the equipment to properly perform testing as called out in the standard, and yet customers are (so unreasonably) unwilling to sign waivers for testing.

Anyone else running into this problem? If so, how are you dealing with it?
 
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Ron Rompen

Trusted Information Resource
#3
We have considered the option of testing by an outside lab; however the cost (and time) would quickly become prohibitive. As an example, we supply company D with 4 different parts, each of which are now to be plated to GMW4700.

Testing would require the construction of 8 different fixtures (1 fixture for the test-to-failure, 1 fixture for the test-under-load), a lot sample of minimum 5 pcs, and a test time of 48 hrs (plus transit time to and from the test facility, time waiting in queue for use of the test equipment, etc). We supply approximately 30K pcs of each per week, so would have to test each and every week. Costs for the fixture design and build are ~$5000 per part, and lot testing is ~$500 per lot.

Thats only one customer, with only a few parts which are affected. We have customers who have 15 or 20 parts affected by these changes, and who are definitely not going to want to pay the additional costs.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#4
Ron Rompen said:
Thats only one customer, with only a few parts which are affected. We have customers who have 15 or 20 parts affected by these changes, and who are definitely not going to want to pay the additional costs.
I don't understand. It's standard in the automotive business to pass along the costs of testing--it's part of the cost of producing the part, and no customer should expect it to be done gratis. It's simple: for each customer that now requires the testing, you contact the buyer, quote the costs, and let them make the decision as to whether the testing is worth it or not. When the requirements change, you review the contract, propose changes, and let the customer decide.
 
R

Randy Stewart

#5
Ron,
The company I work for applies coatings via dip/spin and we paint over numerous zinc parts, mostly trivalent now. My lab is accredited for US/CAR 5 & 7 so we have some experience with the testing. We conduct these test on a set schedule per process / spec in order to maintain our license and B3 approval status. We have to Salt Spray each coating system once per shift so we will do the hydrogen testing once a month or so.
This testing is based on the "spec" and not a "lot", similar to the fluid resistance testing for initial approval. Our coating systems do not induce hydrogen embrittlement however for GM, DC, Delphi, etc. you still have to provide testing results even if it is surrogate data for a particular part.
Your zinc plater may do something similar to remain a licensed applicator. Your customer may accept the testing from the plater and not require any additonal costs.
I know our customers will not accept a piece price increase for testing. They call it the cost of doing business with them. For outside customers there is a charge.
If we can help feel free to contact me.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
Randy Stewart said:
I know our customers will not accept a piece price increase for testing. They call it the cost of doing business with them.
This is probably due to the fact that contracts are poorly structured to begin with. When you quote a job, whether or not the costs are bulleted out, all of your costs should be accounted for the in quoted price, so the customer is paying for the testing even though it's not explicit. There needs to be language in the initial agreement, however, that says that any change to the original specifications is cause to reopen the negotiations. Your company has apparently decided to allow itself to be bullied in this regard, so you can expect more of the same, I assure you. I realize that sometimes "business decisions" are made, but to allow a customer to in effect charge you for services it requires in an ex post facto manner should be considered unacceptable.
 
R

Randy Stewart

#7
There needs to be language in the initial agreement, however, that says that any change to the original specifications is cause to reopen the negotiations.
Oh yes, in a perfect world. This market is so competitive now that no matter how good your quality, customer service, etc. is your customer will go out of state to save a quarter cent per pound. So to charge an unheard of price of $150 a year for testing would lose you $40,000 a month in sales.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#8
Randy Stewart said:
Oh yes, in a perfect world. This market is so competitive now that no matter how good your quality, customer service, etc. is your customer will go out of state to save a quarter cent per pound. So to charge an unheard of price of $150 a year for testing would lose you $40,000 a month in sales.
Every case is different, and indeed, $150 a year might be negligible in light of $40k in sales. But that isn't what we were talking about. Ron described the cost for testing in his case as prohibitive. It's one thing to throw a customer an occasional bone in the interest of goodwill, but it's quite another to take a bullet for a customer who isn't providing a reasonable level of profit to begin with.
 

Ron Rompen

Trusted Information Resource
#9
Randy:

I'm not sure how what you are doing (monthly testing) would be applicable in this case. The wording of the standard is (at least as far as I understand it) very specific. Each lot MUST be tested; not surrogate data from similar parts in similar processing (that would be fine for salt spray and plating thickness, etc).

With regards to cost, if it was only $150 a year (or a month) I wouldn't have a problem...but if you look at my previous post, you will see that for this one set of parts (4 different ones) I am looking at $20,000 for fixture design and construction, and $2000 per week. This is for outsourced testing....if I had the equipment to do the testing in-house, the costs would be somewhat lower, but still siginificant. And as I pointed out, this is only ONE customer, with a smally quantity of parts....I am more concerned with the customer with 20 different parts, who will be facing somewhat the same costs.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
I tend to agree with Jim (JSW05) that this is a Contract Review issue.

Whoever supplies GM and meets this requiremen has an additional cost if the frequency is really what you report. The fact some suppliers will be able to do this for slightly less than others is the grease of commerce which is merely one of the factors in setting the price to GM.

I would NEVER allow GM or any other OEM to change the terms of a contract in mid stream without being sure to change the pricing as well. What you report is that GM has asked you to reduce the price of the product by thousands of dollars and you (your organization) said, "OK" without a fight.

GM and its offspring (Delphi) seem to make a habit of changing all their contracts in midstream to pay their suppliers and employees less money. I seem to remember a slogan applied to using drugs, but it seems to apply here, as well:
"Just say NO!"
 
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