I asked myself a question 'What does a Management System Manage?'

[JJ777]

Re: Today, I asked myself a question 'What does a management system manage?'

My few on this topic.
If want HR address it in clause c of the Man Review Input - Process Performance & Product Conformity = You will need a person's input or a start of the Process e.g. who starts the machine, is the person competent to use the machine if not the output is not up to standard = Product Conformity.
HR part 2 clause f of the Management Review - Changes that could affect the QMS, are the people competent, is the resources enough to supply the product/service etc.
If you want Marketing clause g - Recommendations for improvement no to be used only for process improvement.

What I have learnt her on the cove is that management does not want the direct input as the standard lays out but we need to improvise in order to keep management's attention saying if we don't do this x will happen if we do this y will happen.

 

[Cindy China]

Re: Today, I asked myself a question 'What does a management system manage?'

An ISO engineer ?
Very very clearly, please say what this position is ... ? and what you have as your authority and responsibility.
I am beginning to get a feeling that you are in a place that does something for your business and an other thing for the ISO 9001 standard, and from this evolves your question and perhaps the frustation.

in charge of set up，maintain and improve management system

 

[Cindy China]

Re: Today, I asked myself a question 'What does a management system manage?'

Hi Cindy China,
only to contribute to your post.
Management review in ISO 9001 have several inputs and certain output.
Check 5.6.2 and 5.6.3.
I do not know what are the QMS processes of your organization , but one of the input is the performance of the processes and the conformity of the product.
What you said in the post ( Training, HR etc...) could be under mgmt review if you have identified as QMS process.
Consider also clause f and g of the 5.6.2.
Also the output are clear : a) , b) and c) are the basic to manage QMS processes with effectiveness and efficiency.
Besides, in an organization mgmt review could be done in different layers.
I don't know the level of knowledge of ISO 9001 of your top mgmt.
If they say what you reported in the post, I do not know how they can be consider sponsor.
Try to suggest to read par 01 and 02 of ISO 9001 related to the generalities of QMS and process approach.
hope this helps

yes， they read it ，but if they understand or they really understand.

 

[JJ777]

Re: Today, I asked myself a question 'What does a management system manage?'

in charge of set up，maintain and improve management system

Does your function also extend to Internal Audits, if yes these issues that you do have should've been raised during your Internal Audit of your QMS.

 

[Cindy China]

Re: Today, I asked myself a question 'What does a management system manage?'

Does your function also extend to Internal Audits, if yes these issues that you do have should've been raised during your Internal Audit of your QMS.

yes, of course.findings in KPIs, suggestion to add valuable objectives into it, but it is refused by MR. The excuse is the boss don't wanna pressure each function by many figures.

 

[Cindy China]

Re: Today, I asked myself a question 'What does a management system manage?'

My few on this topic.
If want HR address it in clause c of the Man Review Input - Process Performance & Product Conformity = You will need a person's input or a start of the Process e.g. who starts the machine, is the person competent to use the machine if not the output is not up to standard = Product Conformity.
HR part 2 clause f of the Management Review - Changes that could affect the QMS, are the people competent, is the resources enough to supply the product/service etc.
If you want Marketing clause g - Recommendations for improvement no to be used only for process improvement.

What I have learnt her on the cove is that management does not want the direct input as the standard lays out but we need to improvise in order to keep management's attention saying if we don't do this x will happen if we do this y will happen.

The management told me, they put the valuable figures(business,operation) into the management board meeting, not into the management review of ISO.And it's non of me ISO engineer business. And the figures are confidential to me.

 

[Cindy China]

Re: Today, I asked myself a question 'What does a management system manage?'

ISO9001 is a guide to help a business come up with a Management system that works by continuously improving. How you actually Manage your business is up to you. ISO9001 is there as a great guide to work by. This is the same for EFQM, TQM and all the other ideas out there. As far as I can see ISO9001 really does encompass the whole organisation including sales etc even if not explicitly mentioned. After all isn't sales and marketing a large part of product or service realisation? and isn't that a huge part of ISO9001? Doesn't document control as another example cover the whole organisation and not just one area? Taking time to understand ISO9001 in relation to the whole organisation is something that is really beneficial if it is to be used to best advantage.

So that's what I want to figure out. What the ISO9001 in my company for? Certificate? Customer Audit? Third Party Audit? Fashion? pro forma ?

 

[howste]

Re: Today, I asked myself a question 'What does a management system manage?'

yes, of course.findings in KPIs, suggestion to add valuable objectives into it, but it is refused by MR. The excuse is the boss don't wanna pressure each function by many figures.

The MR should understand the of the principles of ISO 9000 that (should) form the foundation of the QMS. For example:

Factual approach to decision making
Effective decisions are based on the analysis of data and information.

Leadership
Leaders establish unity of purpose and direction of the organization. They should create and maintain the internal environment in which people can become fully involved in achieving the organization's objectives.

Involvement of people
People at all levels are the essence of an organization and their full involvement enables their abilities to be used for the organization's benefit.

So that's what I want to figure out. What the ISO9001 in my company for? Certificate? Customer Audit? Third Party Audit? Fashion? pro forma ?

Unfortunately it sounds like in your organization, it's for the certificate. Management has decided that the QMS (or ISO cert) should be a separate appendage to the business, but should have no impact on the business. Unfortunately what this usually does is adds cost to the organization without adding any benefit.

 

[JJ777]

Re: Today, I asked myself a question 'What does a management system manage?'

The MR should understand the of the principles of ISO 9000 that (should) form the foundation of the QMS. For example:



Unfortunately it sounds like in your organization, it's for the certificate. Management has decided that the QMS (or ISO cert) should be a separate appendage to the business, but should have no impact on the business. Unfortunately what this usually does is adds cost to the organization without adding any benefit.

Surely somewhere the Certification Bodies auditors should find something if the MR is not effective and then most likely the company might loose its certification.

 

[samsung]

Re: Today, I asked myself a question 'What does a management system manage?'

Surely somewhere the Certification Bodies auditors should find something if the MR is not effective and then most likely the company might loose its certification.

I suppose what the MR does in this case is a management decision and there's nothing the CB can do. If the current CB denies a certification, the organization can find another one on its own terms if at all the purpose is just to have one.