I thought that MIL-Q-9858A, MIL-I-45208A and MIL-STD-45662 were obsolete

Douglas E. Purdy

Quite Involved in Discussions
#11
Wow! No calibrated guages!

I have worked with a sheet metal shop that provided formed sheet metal panels to be used by a supplier of spaceborne products to NOAA. The shop maintained no inspection activities (either at incoming, in process or final/prior to shipment), they did not have "calibrated" guages, nor did they have any documented procedures; but they had skilled sheet metal workers (average of 23 years of experience) that through contract provided these formed panels with virtually no rejects/returns from the customer (the customer had made arrangements to act as the incoming inspection and final inspection points.)

It was apparent to those of us that were receiving these panels that this sheet metal company had an excellent QMS (one though undocumented, existed in the form of company culture) which provided us with more consistent product than many of our "certified" suppliers.

It's not the Standard that matters, it's the culture behind it.
__________________
David D. Hartman
Hard to believe that without calibrated guages and inspection activities that the culture produced this virtual no rejects/returns yield! Amazing!

Since you put caliberated in quotes, what were you saying? They did not have a 4.11 (9001:1994), ISO-10012, or Guide 25 documented system.

Not to have either element, or process, in place whether documented or not does seem to fly in the face of any quality management principles. Doesn't?
Can there be such a culture without there being a system?

Amazed,
Doug
 
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D

David Hartman

#12
Douglas E. Purdy said:
Hard to believe that without calibrated guages and inspection activities that the culture produced this virtual no rejects/returns yield! Amazing!

Since you put caliberated in quotes, what were you saying? They did not have .

Not to have either element, or process, in place whether documented or not does seem to fly in the face of any quality management principles. Doesn't?
Can there be such a culture without there being a system?

Amazed,
Doug
You know, as hard as it may be to believe for as far back as the Medieval times mankind has been able to manufacture quality products without the aid of "a 4.11 (9001:1994), ISO-10012, or Guide 25 documented system".

I know that perhaps it goes against the grain, but when it comes to coarse measurements the common steel scale/ruler is a very capable instrument. And much to the chagrin of the ISO authorities they really are not an item that can be calibrated (they are verifiable, but are NOT capable of calibration).

The company in my example formed fairly large pieces of sheet metal, and relied on uncalibrated (but high quality, brand name) scales, rulers, and protractors. And proved very capable of meeting our stated design requirements.

Keep in mind that our supplier control process for this supplier amounted to us having to measure (with calibrated/verified instruments) each and every piece recieved from them - since we chose to be their final inspection station (although after a period of time we did move to a Mil-Std-105 based sampling and switching system), and they consistently maintained a 99%+ acceptance rate.

Which leads me to question: In this specific scenario, what value would we have gained by requiring this company to expend time, money, and effort into implementing "a 4.11 (9001:1994), ISO-10012, or Guide 25 documented system"?
 
G

Graeme

#13
MIL-STDs never die, they just morph into something else

Greg Maggard said:
Yes we are in the process of If you will, "SIFTING" through the old and the new Military Standards. I can not access the site earlier mentioned in the thread. I'm looking for MIL-STD-105 &414. Could anyone help :bigwave: :thedeal:
MIL-STD-105 was replaced in 1981 by ANSI/ASQ Z1.4 Sampling Procedures and Tables for Inspection by Attributes.

MIL-STD-414 was replaced in 1980 by ANSI/ASQ Z1.9 Sampling Procedures and Tables for Inspection by Variables for Percent Nonconforming.

Copies of the standards can be purchased from ASQ.
 
M

Mark Mills

#14
We just got audited to meet the MIL-STD-45208. Is there a certifying body that would give us a certification for that?
 
R

Reg Morrison

#15
Is there a certifying body that would give us a certification for that?
Based on certification bodies eagerness to certify everyone to anything, I can almost guarantee that ANY certification body, including the ones that don't have any form of accreditation would love to make you part with some money in exchange for an audit audit and certify your system against any Mil Standard. Obviously, it would NOT be an accredited certification.
 

dgriffith

Quite Involved in Discussions
#17
Re: An escapee from the mysterious ways of the government!

Aah, I wish I had ready access to the "canned" response that was in my computer when I was working with an acquisition agency ... now I have to rely on faulty memory ... :rolleyes:

The Department of Defense regularly reviews military specifications and standards for continued applicability and effectiveness. In 1996, then-Secretary Perry directed that whenever possible, existing international, national or industry specifications and standards should be used by preference, and he greatly speeded up the the rate of review. The eventual result will be that a MIL-STD or MIL-SPEC will exist only if it fills a military need that another document does not exist for.
Perhaps his decision was influenced by OMB Circular A119, 1993, Federal Participation in the Development and Use of Voluntary Standards, which (paraphrasing) required Agencies to adopt voluntary consensus standards.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration with a Mask on...
Staff member
Admin
#18
A Weekend Thought...

None of these has totally disappeared. They have been incorporated into the current standards. The basics and essentials of "Quality Assurance" haven't changed. The words have been switched around, and nuances have arisen, some of which are valid, and some of which are nonsense, but their essence and core principles are not lost to time...
 
M

Mnts2C

#19
It is so nice to see a well maintained, active, and 'cared for' website. Marc and the other regulars do such a wonderful job.

R/ Mike
 

hogheavenfarm

Quite Involved in Discussions
#20
They never seem to go away, Just this morning I was working on a quote for a project that requires conformance to Mil-1-3190-6A for dielectric testing.
 
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