Interesting Discussion IAF CertSearch Database - Repository of "properly" Accredited Management System Certs

Did your organization receive an invite to be listed in the IAF Certsearch database?

  • Yes, and we want to be listed

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Yes, but we don't want to be listed

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, but we want to be listed

    Votes: 3 30.0%
  • No and we don't care

    Votes: 1 10.0%
  • Database? what database?

    Votes: 6 60.0%

  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#1
The following message was included in a recent post by Gramaley:

OTHER Breaking news ISO's "CERTO" database
ISO is creating a global certification database for all IAF based accredited certificates. So instead of tracking down all of this information yourself, at the CABs and ABs websites, you will go to ISO's "CERTO" databse

Only ISO certs operating under IAF accreditation will be entered into the database. You will see Food Safety QMS certs, Medical Device QMS certs, and others, all put their by the CABs that have been accredited by the IAF member ABs.

From what I have seen and heard so far, the CERTO database could be operational as soon as September! This was an enormous undertaking and ISO is determined to keep this as "not for profit". It will also start to clean up the world of all those organizations that trade certs like candy for cash.
Some of us have been voicing our desire for an OASIS-like database, with accurate, real-time, online access to management system certificates issued against ISO standards. Apparently ISO will finally make it happen, based on Gramaley's post.

It will indeed make the life of the pseudo accredited CB's a little more difficult, because their certificates won't be listed there. Time will tell how good this database will be. When I wrote to the IAF and ISO about this, many years ago, I strongly suggested that some of the features currently present in OASIS, such as the feedback loops and the escalation process for unresolved issues, should also be part of this database/website but I suspect ISO CERTO will not have the same range of features we presently have in OASIS.

Apparently the database will be accessible from the ISO - International Organization for Standardization website, when it becomes available. For the time being, it gets redirected to the main ISO website (www.iso.org).
 
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Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#2
The bigger problem will be how many companies will actually know about and use the database. Not to mention how many companies will care if their CB is in the database as long as they have a certificate from a company they "believe in". I hope it works out well but I have my doubts. I will say this is something that will be as important to the ISO folks from promotional and legitimization aspects as it is to any company which uses it (not to mention whether there will be a charge/membership cost to use it...).
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
Very true! A database is fine, but it does not add value to certification.

The actual value of a certificate depends on two things:
  1. How committed Top Management and their organization are, and
  2. The actual enforcement of the requirements by Registrars and their Auditors
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#4
I'm still the "odd man out". I don't care about whether a company has an ISO 9001 certificate or not and wouldn't make purchasing decisions based upon it. It's a matter of whether or not the company supplies good product consistently or not. That includes systems such as appropriate risk management with respect to the product.

I'm not sure what they teach in business schools, much less what one learns in an MBA program, but I think what ISO 9001 requires should be "business 101". But then, I'm a biologist who ended up in quality assurance in high reliability electronics in a DoD company so all of what is in ISO 9001 are things we were already doing over 30 years ago. From what is now called a "process approach" to risk analysis, internal audits and such.

I still remember when I first saw ISO 9001 around 1990 and laughed at the girl who photo-copied it for me from her copy. She told me I could make a lot of money knowing it. All I knew was DoD work so ISO 9001 was so basic I just didn't believe her - Until a company asked me to help them implement it. She was right - The $$$ was almost 3x what I was making. That's when I became a full time consultant. I will say I made the most money in QS-9000 (and then TS 16949) implementations and related automotive training, but that's another story.

I'm not against standards, I'm just not impressed with ISO 9001.
 

Ronen E

Problem Solver
Staff member
Moderator
#5
Very true! A database is fine, but it does not add value to certification.

The actual value of a certificate depends on two things:
  1. How committed Top Management and their organization are, and
  2. The actual enforcement of the requirements by Registrars and their Auditors
You are correct; however, a database such as the one Gramaley described (envisages?) + a supporting accreditation / mutual recognition / mutual oversight system + international published certification / accreditation standards (170XX) application by that system, is a first step in that direction. There will never be a substitute to top management commitment, but in an environment like that there may be a stronger drive from the market.

If anyone is able to quickly, easily and free-of-charge verify that their supplier's certificate comes from a CAB (overseen by an AB) that operates to acceptable standards, it can help weed out all the others. True, that still doesn't guarantee high standards, but through closing the loop all aspects can be continually improved, and if we all stick around long enough I believe we will see the improvement sometime in the future.

I don't know about ISO 9001 but in terms of ISO 13485 implementation it may provide real added value to clients.

Cheers,
Ronen.
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#6
ISO 13485 is a whole different ball game. I *assume* this CERTO Database is for ISO 9001. Does anyone know if it will cover other ISO standards?
 

Ronen E

Problem Solver
Staff member
Moderator
#7
First, Gramaley posted that CERTO may go live as early as September 2014, and implied that it will include ISO 13485. A while later he posted that CERTO is planned to go live only in 2015, and that he petitioned ISO that it will include ISO 13485. I think he is best positioned to further clarify.

Cheers,
Ronen.
 
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Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#9
ISO 13485 is a whole different ball game. I *assume* this CERTO Database is for ISO 9001. Does anyone know if it will cover other ISO standards?
I would think that the database would cover most if not all of the management system standards currently reported in the ISO Survey such as 9001, 14001, 27001, 22000, 16949, 13485, 50001, etc.

Why is 13485 a totally different ball game than 9001?
 

Marc

Hunkered Down for the Duration
Staff member
Admin
#10
The most "popular" standard is ISO 9001 which is, as we all know, for any type of company/industry. So it ISO 14001 for all intents and purposes. When you look to ISO 13485 it is more prescriptive targeting medical device companies just as AS9100 targets aerospace which are highly regulated.

It would be nice if the ISO people do come up with a database which includes companies which are registered all the various standards a company can be registered to. As you know, it has been tried in the past. Maybe such an effort by the ISO folks will succeed. I'm skeptical, however.

Before I posted in this thread originally I had not been following the discussion thread referenced. I made a bad assumption that this new database would be for ISO 9001. Now that I have read the thread ( ISO 13485 and Class 1 Medical Device - FDA thinking ) it raises more issues. So what if ISO does put together a database and all the CBs and ABs for certain ISO standards. What about countries which use the MDSAP, for example? That is an excellent thread and it comes down to the various countries/organizations and how they will interweave their acceptance of various accreditation requirements and schemes.

Like I say - I have never been an ISO 9001 or ISO 14001 fan because they are so basic/generic. When you get into standards for specific industries it changes things quite a it. Look at it this way - What are ISO 9001 auditors paid vs. ISO 13485 or AS9100 or TS 16949 auditors? What experience and qualifications do the auditors for each have to have? You and I both know ISO 9001 auditors are a dime a dozen. Qualified ISO 13485, AS9100 and TS 16949 auditors? Not so much.

I don't know what will come out of the ISO CERTO database - We will see. But also, as I mentioned, it will be an ISO thing and I seriously doubt it will cover anything other than certain ISO standards. That leaves a big gap for companies which are certified to standards which are similar which other countries use such as certain CE certifications.

That is in part why, after reading the thread referenced, I look at industries such as pharmaceuticals and medical devices and recognize how little I know about about how, world wide, all the different standards targeting the same industry (such as medical devices) are/will be cross border accepted.

Excuse me while I continue to learn.
 

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