IATF 16949:2016 Cl. 7.2.3 Internal Auditor Competency Requirements

[Golfman25]

There is nothing in the standard that states a certification is required.
What I have seen done is a sort of job shadow. The QA Manager (who has an extensive background in ISO standards) took a newly selected internal auditor on several internal audits as a co-auditor. After x amount of hours the new auditor then performed their own audit and submitted it for review. This was used to prove competency, and the new auditor was then authorized to perform internal audits on their own.

Yes basically an apprenticeship. But how doable is that for most companies? Not very.

 

[ISOexcited]

I believe it is very "doable". One would think the newly selected auditor has reviewed or discussed the availability requirements for training and auditing. The manager (or lead auditor) is responsible for training his/her team, as well as completing internal audits. Not saying it would work for all, but I'm not sure why this wouldn't work for most.

 

[Antyp]

In order to kill speculations lets have a look what IATF actually says:

Quality management system auditors, manufacturing process auditors, and product auditors shall all be able to demonstrate the following minimum competencies:
a) understanding of the automotive process approach for auditing, including risk-based thinking;
b) understanding of applicable customer-specific requirements;
c) understanding of applicable ISO
and so on....

key word here is understanding.... check oxford English dictionary to learn that it might be for instance "sympathetic awareness"
I would say that the organization need to define what understanding means for it which also might be different depending on type of auditor.

If you choose and put into your procedure certified - then get them certified; if you want them self trained, that is what you need to evidence.

Only be careful about CSRs and that is basically it.
Anyone who tries to force you towards externally provided, more or less complex training for more or less money is trying to extort money from you.

 

[jtprettyman]

IATF has released a Sanctioned Interpretation October 2017 that specifically deals with 7.2.3, and draws a distinction between Management System Auditors and others.

 

[Marc]

Also see: International Automotive Task Force for FAQ, etc.

 

[JerryJ]

Just to add to the conversation, on my last TS audit back in June I received a minor non-conformance for shadowing an internal auditor in training. My argument was if I am the one doing the training how can I not be watching how they are performing the audit. Her response was how long does it take to train an auditor. After one time they should be on their own. Needless to say that set me off and it turned in to a screaming match. You want to write something up then write a non-conformance against a real issue. This was nit-picking, so I did a bullshit corrective action she closed it and said she would never come back. A lot of the auditors I have dealt with come in here with the attitude thinking everyone should be scared because I'm here to audit you, well that does not fly with me and have kicked a couple out the door before they even got started. I'm paying you to come in here and do a job I don't care what you want or how you want it to look. It either conforms to the standard or it doesn't. When you call and complain to the registrar you get nowhere. Now my transition audit which is this July the auditor coming in does a good job and will explain why she is writing non-conformances. Not come in and the first thing is what's for lunch lets get that out of the way.
I think I'm done now.

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Just to add to the conversation, on my last TS audit back in June I received a minor non-conformance for shadowing an internal auditor in training. My argument was if I am the one doing the training how can I not be watching how they are performing the audit. Her response was how long does it take to train an auditor. After one time they should be on their own. Needless to say that set me off and it turned in to a screaming match. You want to write something up then write a non-conformance against a real issue. This was nit-picking

Unbelievable how unprofessional some auditors can be.

I really wish there was an auditor-rating webspace available, as I proposed in the Rating Auditors - A 'Clearinghouse' for Auditors or a Way to Rate Auditors? thread. Some of the bozos would be weeded out, much, much quicker.

 

[Golfman25]

Just to add to the conversation, on my last TS audit back in June I received a minor non-conformance for shadowing an internal auditor in training. My argument was if I am the one doing the training how can I not be watching how they are performing the audit. Her response was how long does it take to train an auditor. After one time they should be on their own. Needless to say that set me off and it turned in to a screaming match. You want to write something up then write a non-conformance against a real issue. This was nit-picking, so I did a bullshit corrective action she closed it and said she would never come back. A lot of the auditors I have dealt with come in here with the attitude thinking everyone should be scared because I'm here to audit you, well that does not fly with me and have kicked a couple out the door before they even got started. I'm paying you to come in here and do a job I don't care what you want or how you want it to look. It either conforms to the standard or it doesn't. When you call and complain to the registrar you get nowhere. Now my transition audit which is this July the auditor coming in does a good job and will explain why she is writing non-conformances. Not come in and the first thing is what's for lunch lets get that out of the way.
I think I'm done now.

That's the kind of stuff that makes me nuts. She went beyond the standard and looked at your method of training with no evidence that the training itself was ineffective. Be gland she is never coming back. I have found that there are some really bad auditors in automotive.

 

[tony s]

If the IATF Sanctioned Interpretation released in October 2017 clarified that:

from the statement: "Where training is provided to achieve competency, documented information shall be retained to demonstrate the trainer's competency with the above requirements".

to this statement: "If the organization’s personnel provide the training to achieve competency, documented information shall be retained to demonstrate the trainer's competency with the above requirements".

and with a Rationale for Change: "Distinguish competency requirements for quality management system auditors, manufacturing process auditors, and product auditors. Clarified the trainer competency expectations for internally provided training".

Then, competency of the trainer of internal audit training courses given by external providers (i.e. consultants) will not be challenged by the CB auditors? What's your take on this?

 

[Stijloor]

If the IATF Sanctioned Interpretation released in October 2017 clarified that:

from the statement: "Where training is provided to achieve competency, documented information shall be retained to demonstrate the trainer's competency with the above requirements".

to this statement: "If the organization’s personnel provide the training to achieve competency, documented information shall be retained to demonstrate the trainer's competency with the above requirements".

and with a Rationale for Change: "Distinguish competency requirements for quality management system auditors, manufacturing process auditors, and product auditors. Clarified the trainer competency expectations for internally provided training".

Then, competency of the trainer of internal audit training courses given by external providers (i.e. consultants) will not be challenged by the CB auditors? What's your take on this?

Regardless of the SI, some of my new Clients are interested in my credentials and competencies. So I have included in my listing of credentials a few formal "Statements of Competency" that are the result of actual observations and verification of my training work and audit skills by an IATF Lead Assessor and a Corporate Quality Director of a very large automotive supplier organization. Just to remove all doubt.