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IATF 16949:2016 clause 8.4.2.3 - We don't have ISO 9001:2015 certificate

John C. Abnet

Teacher, sensei, kennari
Staff member
#11
include a second-party audit process in their supplier management approach."
Good day @malasuerte ;
With all due respect, allow me to respond in defense of @Jim Wynne 's previous comment to this . You are correct in regards to the possible benefits of auditing members of the supply chain if /when needed. Indeed , when developing an IATF 16949 management system I consistently council organizations to establish criteria for what MAY be the impetus for a 2nd party audit, and of course the competency criteria for any who may be involved in performing those audits (7.2.4).

I would, however, council that many coming to this site for answers are very new to this and other topics. Therefore, it is our collective responsibility to ensure our opinions are left at the door unless of course we are stating that comments made are indeed simply our opinions. As with other standards, if there is not a specific requirement, then the requirement does not exist. Therefore, @Jim Wynne 's comment is indeed correct that there is no requirement to perform supplier audits. This of course does not negate your opinion that it can be one option for for assisting with supplier development and/or supplier monitoring.

On a slightly different topic, we should also take care in the use of subjective terms such as "critical". In my experience, a quick survey of what a term means within an organization often results in a multitude of differing answers. Therefore, I council organizations if/when they wish to use terms such as "key" or "important" or "critical" etc..etc..., to have a specific established definition of any such term in order to prevent confusion.

Hope this helps.
Be well.
 
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Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#12
Good day @malasuerte ; there is no requirement to perform internal supplier audits. T
You should fix your post as per my suggestion above, since we are not talking about internal audits; as for the IATF 16949:2016 standard, actually 8.4.2.3 lists 5 stages of supplier development and in 3 of such stages, supplier audits are required. So, in reality there are requirements for supplier audits, unless the supplier is IATF 16949 certified.
 

John C. Abnet

Teacher, sensei, kennari
Staff member
#13
You should fix your post as per my suggestion above, since we are not talking about internal audits; as for the IATF 16949:2016 standard, actually 8.4.2.3 lists 5 stages of supplier development and in 3 of such stages, supplier audits are required. So, in reality there are requirements for supplier audits, unless the supplier is IATF 16949 certified.

Arghhhh. The term "internal" was a mistype (brain skip). Thanks for pointing this out @Sidney Vianna . It's too late for me to edit it. As a staff member can you "reset" the edit option so I can fix it? Thank you.
 

malasuerte

Involved In Discussions
#15
Good day @malasuerte ;
With all due respect, allow me to respond in defense of @Jim Wynne 's previous comment to this . You are correct in regards to the possible benefits of auditing members of the supply chain if /when needed. Indeed , when developing an IATF 16949 management system I consistently council organizations to establish criteria for what MAY be the impetus for a 2nd party audit, and of course the competency criteria for any who may be involved in performing those audits (7.2.4).

I would, however, council that many coming to this site for answers are very new to this and other topics. Therefore, it is our collective responsibility to ensure our opinions are left at the door unless of course we are stating that comments made are indeed simply our opinions. As with other standards, if there is not a specific requirement, then the requirement does not exist. Therefore, @Jim Wynne 's comment is indeed correct that there is no requirement to perform supplier audits. This of course does not negate your opinion that it can be one option for for assisting with supplier development and/or supplier monitoring.

On a slightly different topic, we should also take care in the use of subjective terms such as "critical". In my experience, a quick survey of what a term means within an organization often results in a multitude of differing answers. Therefore, I council organizations if/when they wish to use terms such as "key" or "important" or "critical" etc..etc..., to have a specific established definition of any such term in order to prevent confusion.

Hope this helps.
Be well.
Sorry if my opinion is causing issues. My view may be skewed working for a large company, when we most definitely, unequivocally must audit our suppliers! I will concede there is no absolute requirement to audit suppliers. But the clause 100% factually states you must have a 2nd-Party audit process. I would imagine there are companies that would not need to audit their suppliers - but you still need to have a process to do so.

8.4.2.4.1The organization shall include a second-party audit process in their supplier management approach. Second-party audits may be used for the following:
a) supplier risk assessment;b) supplier monitoring;c) supplier QMS development;d) product audits;e) process audits.

Based on a risk analysis, including product safety/regulatory requirements, performance of the supplier, and QMS certification level, at a minimum, the organization shall document the criteria for determining the need, type, frequency, and scope of second-party audits.

The organization shall retain records of the second-party audit reports. If the scope of the second-party audit is to assess the supplier's quality management system, then the approach shall be consistent with the automotive process approach. NOTE: Guidance may be found in the IATF Auditor Guide and ISO 19011.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#18

John C. Abnet

Teacher, sensei, kennari
Staff member
#19
OK. So, with the SI, there are 4 levels of supplier development, with TWO requiring supplier audits. So, unless the supplier base is IATF 16949 certified, organizations are still required to perform supplier audits according to this S.I. Or am I missing something?
Nope...missing nothing. You noticed the point of my FYI.

Be well.
 
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