IATF 16949 : 2016 - How put in place a Containment for this kind of Major NC

#1
Good morning all,

I am a new member of this forum and here is my first topic (I did not see if a presentation is requested and I apologies if needed, did not see anything..!)

First, I know that my enghish is poor but I try to learn and to improve grammar and vocabulary ! Thank you for your inderstanding.

I am Christophe, 48 years old, I am the Quality Manager of a small iron Foundry in France.
Of course, we have to be compliant with the standards IATF 16949 / ISO 9001 : 2015 and I work on it every day !

Our external audit has been done last week, and I have some nonconformities (such a hard moment ..) and the main problem is the major noncoformities..

The first is related to the chapter "7.1.6 Organizational knowledge" which has been identified as "not effective" by our Auditor. In fact, I did not start to implment something due to a severe lack of time.

I have to make the root causes analysis and to send the containment action(s) in few days.
How can I put a containment on this kinf of NC ?

Usually, I work with products issue and in this case, of course, containment is easy ... but containment in this context ... I am worried...

If someone is able to give me some advices, it will be nice and I will be very grateful !

Kind regards,

Christophe
 
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#2
Alors, Christophe, bienvenue!

Can you give us the actual statement of nonconformity. For a CB auditor to suggest that your knowledge retention system isn't effective sounds "ne pas drole". Je voudrais jeter un coup d'oeil a cete report.:lol:
 
#3
Hi !

What a quick answer ! Thank you very much ! C'est sympa, j’apprécie :)

I don'k know if I can add photo (short extraction) of the report in a message ...
Nevermind, the report indicates :

Statement of nonconformity : The process to determined all the knowledge necessary for the operation of the processes and to achieve conformity of products and services is not effective.

CSR or IATF Requirement : 7.1.6 Organizational knowledge
The organization shall determine the knowledge necessary for the operation of its processes and to achieve conformity of products and services.
This knowledge shall be maintained and be made available to the extent necessary

Objective Evidence : NDC F is not able to present a detailed list of all the knowledge necessary for all the operation of its processes and to achieve conformity of products and services.

Justify classification minor or major : Classified as major, because
_no methodology has been defined by the company.
_this requirement is not covered at all


Voila ce qui est inscrit dans le rapport, j'espère que cela va vous aider, à m'aider !

Thank you in advance for your time ! At your disposal :)

Christophe

Edit : I just tried to add a picture but it does not works because of my number of messages !
 
Last edited:
#4
Hi !

What a quick answer ! Thank you very much ! C'est sympa, j’apprécie :)

I don'k know if I can add photo (short extraction) of the report in a message ...
Nevermind, the report indicates :

Statement of nonconformity : The process to determined all the knowledge necessary for the operation of the processes and to achieve conformity of products and services is not effective.

CSR or IATF Requirement : 7.1.6 Organizational knowledge
The organization shall determine the knowledge necessary for the operation of its processes and to achieve conformity of products and services.
This knowledge shall be maintained and be made available to the extent necessary

Objective Evidence : NDC F is not able to present a detailed list of all the knowledge necessary for all the operation of its processes and to achieve conformity of products and services.

Justify classification minor or major : Classified as major, because
_no methodology has been defined by the company.
_this requirement is not covered at all


Voila ce qui est inscrit dans le rapport, j'espère que cela va vous aider, à m'aider !

Thank you in advance for your time ! At your disposal :)

Christophe
NDC F is not able to present a detailed list of all the knowledge necessary for all the operation of its processes and to achieve conformity of products and services.

C'est ne pas necessaire pour faire une liste. Each time you run a job through the foundry, do your people keep notes? This is often done by making notes on a job card/shop traveller etc.

The auditor seem to be over-reaching on what the actual standard says. It's perhaps a minor, at worst. Certainly NOT a major. Ca va?
 
#5
Dear Andy,

I think you are right ! It is my opinion too, but I fear it is too late .... I signed the first page of the report at the end of the audit... :confused:

So, now, I have no choice : make a reply to delete the NC.

Have you an idea of a possible containment action ?

Excepted, start to work on it... I don't see what to do !

Christophe
 
#6
Dear Andy,

I think you are right ! It is my opinion too, but I fear it is too late .... I signed the first page of the report at the end of the audit... :confused:

So, now, I have no choice : make a reply to delete the NC.

Have you an idea of a possible containment action ?

Excepted, start to work on it... I don't see what to do !

Christophe
Signing means that you have "accepted" the report, NOT that you agree! You should refer to your CB management and ask for clarity on WHERE in IATF it states a detailed list is required etc. Since the auditor was possibly asking for this, when it's NOT required, you can offer what you actually do. In many cases, any work instructions you may have are a place where knowledge is recorded. Offer the CB (not the auditor) what you do and explain you weren't ASKED for that. Tell them to rescind the NC.

Bon chance, mon ami!
 
#7
Thank you very much, I appreciate your help.

Maybe the "witness auditor" will have the same opinion as you ? (I believe that the report is sent to Paris ta a lead auditor, then in Egypt to the person in charge of the IATF in Europe)

What do you think ?

Have a nice day :D
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#8
If someone is able to give me some advices, it will be nice and I will be very grateful !
Have a look at the Organizational Knowledge Requirements - Meeting ISO 9001:2015 Clause 7.1.6 thread, especially the ISO Paper on the subject available in post # 2 of the thread.

You mentioned that you work for a small enterprise. While knowledge management also applies to small organizations, the smaller you are, the less formal it is. If the auditor is not able to show that you have a problem due to lack of knowledge transfer, i.e., no evidence, s/he should not write up a nonconformity.

I agree with Andy that you could and should appeal this nonconformity to the CB.
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#9
How do you tell your guys what jobs to run and how to run them? Do you use a job order, work order, traveler, job card? There is not even a requirement to document it -- so asking for a "detailed list" seems out of bounds. If you have something, I agree with challenging the finding.

How can I put a containment on this kinf of NC ?
To answer your original question, it's like putting a square plug into a round hole. There is no "containment" for something like this. I suppose you can put a note pad out on the floor for people to write things down, if that's even required.

Good luck man. I feel your pain.
 

Sebastian

Trusted Information Resource
#10
Organization knows how to prepare offer for customer's request for quotation to ensure profitability. Oh, excuse me, Madame Jacqueline knows how to do it.
Organization knows how to find process parameters during production trial to ensure product properties meet specification. Oh, excuse me, Monsieur Jerome knows how to do it.
Madame Jacqueline get married and left company within one week and Monsieur Jerome get sudden stroke and from two months is on a sick leave and probably wont return to work at all.

In my opinion, this requirement was particularly intended for small organizations with poor or lacking corporate culture at all. These kind organizations heavily rely on its certain members. Once any of these members leaves company, it struggles to manage future and sometimes even current jobs.

Dear Christophe, you have two options. One is follow advises of earlier posters and claim "stupid auditor". Second one is saying "Thank you" to auditor and seriously consider risk of loosing organization knowledge due to loosing certain people.
Containment can be, management meeting listing who in organization knows what and whether you are able "to survive" when these persons will leave your organization and how to ensure it. It could be hard to show evidence of maintaining all organizational knowledge within <90 days.
 
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