IATF 16949 8.5.1.3 Verification of job set-ups - Do we need secondary check?

[manishbegins]

Dear Elsmar Mates,

From my past company experiences, whenever First off parts are checked by either Quality or Production associates there is always a supervisor sign off whether these checks are being performed. My new organization at one of the plants, only performs check by Operator and no supervisor signs off on the check made by Operator.
8.5.1.3 Verification of job set-ups
a) verify job set-ups when performed, such as an initial run of a job, material changeover, or job
change that requires a new set-up;
d) perform first-off/last-off part validation, as applicable; where appropriate,

Does that mean twice check/verification is needed? I was given an explanation that Auditor never had an issue with just operator checking and no supervisor sign off at Setup and First off check. And I couldn't write anything up as it has "As applicable" written in 8.5.1.3 d). I still think I can push the issue for additional supervisor sign based on 8.5.1.3 a). Considering Registrar auditor gave it a go without supervisor sign/ verification sign, I need additional inputs to cause a change if it's needed as next Registrar auditor may not give it a go.

 

[Howard Atkins]

This is a matter of your options, do you train and empower operators to approve set ups or not.

What one company does has no relevance to the next.
If you have defined your actions in a process then the current or future auditors are not relevant.
Do not be lead by the nose by "an auditor" (I am an IATF 3rd part auditor)

 

[manishbegins]

This is a matter of your options, do you train and empower operators to approve set ups or not.

What one company does has no relevance to the next.
If you have defined your actions in a process then the current or future auditors are not relevant.
Do not be lead by the nose by "an auditor" (I am an IATF 3rd part auditor)

Thank you Howard. I will make sure we have defined system to reflect the current process. Our operators are surely trained and empowered to approve the set ups with checks per what I am made aware about the location.

 

[Johnnymo62]

IMHO, the two are not the same. I think a) is about machine settings, raw material conditions, correct packaging present, etc. I think d) is about measuring the part (variable or attribute, per CP) to ensure it meets the drawing requirements for the new setup, FO or LO.

 

[Howard Atkins]

As defined by the control plan and any customer requirements after performing a risk assesment in a PFMEA

 

[morteza]

Dear Elsmar Mates,

From my past company experiences, whenever First off parts are checked by either Quality or Production associates there is always a supervisor sign off whether these checks are being performed. My new organization at one of the plants, only performs check by Operator and no supervisor signs off on the check made by Operator.
8.5.1.3 Verification of job set-ups
a) verify job set-ups when performed, such as an initial run of a job, material changeover, or job
change that requires a new set-up;
d) perform first-off/last-off part validation, as applicable; where appropriate,

Does that mean twice check/verification is needed? I was given an explanation that Auditor never had an issue with just operator checking and no supervisor sign off at Setup and First off check. And I couldn't write anything up as it has "As applicable" written in 8.5.1.3 d). I still think I can push the issue for additional supervisor sign based on 8.5.1.3 a). Considering Registrar auditor gave it a go without supervisor sign/ verification sign, I need additional inputs to cause a change if it's needed as next Registrar auditor may not give it a go.

Hi
verification of job set-up does not mean to check twice. job set-up includes performing some activities like tool change, changing machine set-up, installing new work instructions, etc.
verification of job set-up which usually is done by a checklist includes checking tasks to verify:
• equipment, error proofing and PPE,
• environmental conditions at the workstation (cleanliness, lighting,…),
• process parameters with tolerance limits
• availability of components and materials
• etc.
It can be done by operator, supervisor, etc.
First-off part validation is applicable and appropriate for some processes like grinding, press, etc. It is not applicable for some other processes like chemical processes.

I think using the word "validation" is not suitable. It would be better to use the word "verification". validation means confirmation for intended use ...

 

[ariemnugraha]

Dear Elsmar Mates,

From my past company experiences, whenever First off parts are checked by either Quality or Production associates there is always a supervisor sign off whether these checks are being performed. My new organization at one of the plants, only performs check by Operator and no supervisor signs off on the check made by Operator.
8.5.1.3 Verification of job set-ups
a) verify job set-ups when performed, such as an initial run of a job, material changeover, or job
change that requires a new set-up;
d) perform first-off/last-off part validation, as applicable; where appropriate,

Does that mean twice check/verification is needed? I was given an explanation that Auditor never had an issue with just operator checking and no supervisor sign off at Setup and First off check. And I couldn't write anything up as it has "As applicable" written in 8.5.1.3 d). I still think I can push the issue for additional supervisor sign based on 8.5.1.3 a). Considering Registrar auditor gave it a go without supervisor sign/ verification sign, I need additional inputs to cause a change if it's needed as next Registrar auditor may not give it a go.

From my past company experiences, whenever First off parts are checked by either Quality or Production associates there is always a supervisor sign off whether these checks are being performed. My new organization at one of the plants, only performs check by Operator and no supervisor signs off on the check made by Operator.
8.5.1.3 Verification of job set-ups
a) verify job set-ups when performed, such as an initial run of a job, material changeover, or job
change that requires a new set-up;
d) perform first-off/last-off part validation, as applicable; where appropriate,

Does that mean twice check/verification is needed? I was given an explanation that Auditor never had an issue with just operator checking and no supervisor sign off at Setup and First off check. And I couldn't write anything up as it has "As applicable" written in 8.5.1.3 d). I still think I can push the issue for additional supervisor sign based on 8.5.1.3 a). Considering Registrar auditor gave it a go without supervisor sign/ verification sign, I need additional inputs to cause a change if it's needed as next Registrar auditor may not give it a go.[/QUOTE]

Dear Elsmar Mates,

From my past company experiences, whenever First off parts are checked by either Quality or Production associates there is always a supervisor sign off whether these checks are being performed. My new organization at one of the plants, only performs check by Operator and no supervisor signs off on the check made by Operator.
8.5.1.3 Verification of job set-ups
a) verify job set-ups when performed, such as an initial run of a job, material changeover, or job
change that requires a new set-up;
d) perform first-off/last-off part validation, as applicable; where appropriate,

Does that mean twice check/verification is needed? I was given an explanation that Auditor never had an issue with just operator checking and no supervisor sign off at Setup and First off check. And I couldn't write anything up as it has "As applicable" written in 8.5.1.3 d). I still think I can push the issue for additional supervisor sign based on 8.5.1.3 a). Considering Registrar auditor gave it a go without supervisor sign/ verification sign, I need additional inputs to cause a change if it's needed as next Registrar auditor may not give it a go.

Hi,
1. No requirement in IATF that mention Job set up shall conducted twice
2. Job set up shall defined in control plan, (its frequency check, PIC who verify, sample) > see Clause 8.5.1.1, point a)

 

[Jack Chiew]

From my past company experiences, whenever First off parts are checked by either Quality or Production associates there is always a supervisor sign off whether these checks are being performed. My new organization at one of the plants, only performs check by Operator and no supervisor signs off on the check made by Operator.
8.5.1.3 Verification of job set-ups
a) verify job set-ups when performed, such as an initial run of a job, material changeover, or job
change that requires a new set-up;
d) perform first-off/last-off part validation, as applicable; where appropriate,

Does that mean twice check/verification is needed? I was given an explanation that Auditor never had an issue with just operator checking and no supervisor sign off at Setup and First off check. And I couldn't write anything up as it has "As applicable" written in 8.5.1.3 d). I still think I can push the issue for additional supervisor sign based on 8.5.1.3 a). Considering Registrar auditor gave it a go without supervisor sign/ verification sign, I need additional inputs to cause a change if it's needed as next Registrar auditor may not give it a go.

Hi,
1. No requirement in IATF that mention Job set up shall conducted twice
2. Job set up shall defined in control plan, (its frequency check, PIC who verify, sample) > see Clause 8.5.1.1, point a)[/QUOTE]

Dear Elsmar Mates,

From my past company experiences, whenever First off parts are checked by either Quality or Production associates there is always a supervisor sign off whether these checks are being performed. My new organization at one of the plants, only performs check by Operator and no supervisor signs off on the check made by Operator.
8.5.1.3 Verification of job set-ups
a) verify job set-ups when performed, such as an initial run of a job, material changeover, or job
change that requires a new set-up;
d) perform first-off/last-off part validation, as applicable; where appropriate,

Does that mean twice check/verification is needed? I was given an explanation that Auditor never had an issue with just operator checking and no supervisor sign off at Setup and First off check. And I couldn't write anything up as it has "As applicable" written in 8.5.1.3 d). I still think I can push the issue for additional supervisor sign based on 8.5.1.3 a). Considering Registrar auditor gave it a go without supervisor sign/ verification sign, I need additional inputs to cause a change if it's needed as next Registrar auditor may not give it a go.

Hi Manishbegins
I am an IATF 3P auditor. I think the answers to your question are there in the thread now.

1. verification means against the operating parameters, not some supervisor verifying the work of a subordinate. You must have some checklists to do that. Morteza gave some good examples earlier. Another example: In a plastic injection moulding process, common parameters are barrel temperature, moulding pressure and duration, chilled water temp etc. Every part and mould has its own peculiar setting. You need to retain the checking records, though. Checking by 1 person is OK. Done by operator also OK, so long competent.​

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2. Closely related to this is the first-off to be inspected. You can consider the FO exercise here as the validation step. Even the first-off can be done by operators, if competent. Most companies however would use QAQC personnel to do this part, for better assurance.​

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3. Last-off part is generally optional, but there is a trend for adoption recently.​

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4. Remember to specify the setup step on your control plan (see comments of Ariemnugraha). It is a new requirement. Attach a specimen.​

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Hope the above is helpful. Cheers.