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IATF 16949, accredited logos, calibration capabilities, etc.

itsbiodiversity

Involved In Discussions
#1
the certificate of calibration or test report shall include the mark of a national accreditation body; or
- there shall be evidence that the external laboratory is acceptable to the customer
.

Wouldn't evidence of the external laboratories acceptability be explained with a requirement that the laboratory be accredited to the ISO/IEC 17025 standard and demonstrated knowledge of the equipment? It is very common to leave the Logo off of calibrations where it is not "paid for". I see certificates from major companies around the world with no logo and no data charging hundreds. I have worked in the aviation industry for a decade and rarely have ever been requested for an accredited logo.

For instance - a calibration lab is accredited to the ISO/IEC 17025 standard. They perform "general" calibrations, many of which may be gauges specific to the production process and "nameless" (not a mic or caliper per say, but something that measures the exact way). The certificates produced have no logo, because they are reading strictly into their accreditation requirements and it doesn't specifically state "unknown objects measuring linearity of distance" - even though we all know physical dimensional hand tools are similar and if you can do one you most likely can do the other. Regardless - in my opinion - the way I read in to this - that calibration lab would fulfill IATAF requirements regardless of an accredited logo. The gauge owner produces an ISO 17025 Scope of Accreditation for the auditor as proof the external lab is acceptable. The gauge owner's review of the external laboratory's work is also evidence that the external laboratory is acceptable to the customer.

So it boils down to this - a customer requires the laboratory performing calibrations be accredited to ISO/IEC 17025 - point blank. There is no requirement from said customer that each calibration be "accredited". IATAF requirements - fullfilled or not?

Looking forward to some thoughts/opinions.
 
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Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#3
the certificate of calibration or test report shall include the mark of a national accreditation body; or
- there shall be evidence that the external laboratory is acceptable to the customer
.

Wouldn't evidence of the external laboratories acceptability be explained with a requirement that the laboratory be accredited to the ISO/IEC 17025 standard and demonstrated knowledge of the equipment? It is very common to leave the Logo off of calibrations where it is not "paid for". I see certificates from major companies around the world with no logo and no data charging hundreds. I have worked in the aviation industry for a decade and rarely have ever been requested for an accredited logo.

For instance - a calibration lab is accredited to the ISO/IEC 17025 standard. They perform "general" calibrations, many of which may be gauges specific to the production process and "nameless" (not a mic or caliper per say, but something that measures the exact way). The certificates produced have no logo, because they are reading strictly into their accreditation requirements and it doesn't specifically state "unknown objects measuring linearity of distance" - even though we all know physical dimensional hand tools are similar and if you can do one you most likely can do the other. Regardless - in my opinion - the way I read in to this - that calibration lab would fulfill IATAF requirements regardless of an accredited logo. The gauge owner produces an ISO 17025 Scope of Accreditation for the auditor as proof the external lab is acceptable. The gauge owner's review of the external laboratory's work is also evidence that the external laboratory is acceptable to the customer.

So it boils down to this - a customer requires the laboratory performing calibrations be accredited to ISO/IEC 17025 - point blank. There is no requirement from said customer that each calibration be "accredited". IATAF requirements - fullfilled or not?

Looking forward to some thoughts/opinions.
Please don't ask the same question in two different places. It only leads to confusion.
 

itsbiodiversity

Involved In Discussions
#4
Please don't ask the same question in two different places. It only leads to confusion.
I placed more information here, and that post was from over a year ago. Only one sentence was the same. Not sure what is confusing about that. But so be it. I'll delete the other one as I wanted some more conversation here with more explanation.
 

itsbiodiversity

Involved In Discussions
#5
7.1.5.3.2
External laboratory

QUESTION:
Is it required that the calibration certificate or (test) report of an external laboratory bears the mark (or logo or symbol) of the relevant national accreditation body that accredited the laboratory to ISO/IEC 17025?

ANSWER:
Yes, only certificates of calibration or test reports including the mark of a national
accreditation body are acceptable.

The accreditation mark (often also called “accreditation logo” or “accreditation symbol”) of a national accreditation body provides documented evidence that the provided inspection, test, or calibration services were performed according to the accreditation scope and that they comply with the requirements of ISO/IEC 17025, and are subject to supervision of a national accreditation body.

Directly from IATF FAQ. So that is cut and dry. My question is, what if it is acceptable to the customer. And specifically in situations like above, a simple linear measurement, using accredited standards, without the SPECIFIC gauge listed on the scope, but with similar gauges on the scope.

Come one, give me more than simple policing of the board. I came here for some thoughts and opinions.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
My question is, what if it is acceptable to the customer. And specifically in situations like above, a simple linear measurement, using accredited standards, without the SPECIFIC gauge listed on the scope, but with similar gauges on the scope.
What if what is acceptable to the customer? I'm not clear on what your question is. Are you referring to generic measurement devices, such as calipers or micrometers? Give a specific example.
 

itsbiodiversity

Involved In Discussions
#7
I know this is hypothetical and hypotheticals are only worth so much. For instance, a Manufacturer (call the OEM) has approved an accredited laboratory to perform calibrations based on equipment. Some of the equipment is unique to their manufacturing environment, and therefore wouldn't be on a typical laboratory scope (for instance, a simple linear measurement device that is NOT a caliper or mic, but a homemade device using whatever readout and say a laser. The laboratory is accredited in height gages, calipers, mics, etc. so there is evidence that the laboratory is competent; however, the laboratory, in abiding strictly by their guidelines, does not place an ISO logo on the certificate as they interpret their mandate to never place the logo when not specified in the scope of accreditation. I realize the lab is doing no wrong in this instance, but is the OEM staying compliant?
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#8
I'm still a tad befuddled, but your question seems to be answered by the fact that if the customer decides that a given calibration source is acceptable, that's all that matters, regardless of the device(s) in question.
 

itsbiodiversity

Involved In Discussions
#9
That is my point. Some would say that the LOGO itself must appear on the certificate. Some including the IATAF FAQ seem to say the Logo must be there, but their own verbiage says "or acceptable to the customer". In this case the customer requested an ISO/IEC 17025 accredited calibration lab perform the calibrations; however, they did not specify that the calibration itself be on the scope of accreditation - just that the lab is accredited. I hope I'm explaining the scenario ok - I do understand it's confusing to even get in to the details like this at times.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#10
The IATF standard gives 2 options
1)- the laboratory shall be accredited to ISO/IEC 17025 or national equivalent and include the
relevant inspection, test, or calibration service in the scope of the accreditation (certificate); the
certificate of calibration or test report shall include the mark of a national accreditation body;
2) or
- there shall be evidence that the external laboratory is acceptable to the customer.

I do not understand your confusion!
 
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