SBS - the best value in QMS software

IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customers

Crimpshrine13

Involved In Discussions
#1
We run into some similar issues, too.

Example: Japanese OEMs do not require to have TS certification, but some customers in the U.S. require certification to TS, because they just write their supplier manual based on what's written on TS standard. One of the customer requires TS certification although their customer (Japanese OEM) does not require it. We had a situation where the 3rd party auditor asked us if we had confirmed if the customer was okay with ISO certification of our parent company because we supply some parts made by them, then when I could not provide our customer waiver, they would write up a CAR. To this day, I still ask their purchasing department for their purchasing policy, and I get no response.

I hate when they do this to everyone, doing one size fits all thing. Automotive industry is supported by many small companies including small local mom & pop shops that have incredible craftsmanship, and they need to realize that not all businesses are capable to be run the same manner.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#2
Re: Differences between IATF16949:2016 vs TS16949:2009

Get ready. The rules now require that all automotive products/process go thru TS regardless if your customer wants it or not. So you can get dinged on TS things that will leave your customer shaking his head because he doesn't really care about it.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#3
Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

The rules now require that all automotive products/process go thru TS regardless if your customer wants it or not.
That's probably the biggest mistake the IATF could have made, in my opinion.

To mandate that the scope of the audit mandatorily include the product lines from automotive customers which do not subscribe to the IATF 16949 standard for it's supply chain is prone to create friction between registrants, their customers and their CB auditors and dilute the audit effectiveness for the clients which mandate the certification.

In the aerospace sector, CB's are expected to spread the audit time in proportion of the organization's aero customers, which, in many cases, does not make much sense either.

If I had my way, one of the changes I would make to the accredited management system certification is to ensure, during the audit planning that, auditors only spend time assessing aspects of the system connected with issues for customers which mandate certification.

It makes zero sense for 3[sup]rd[/sup] party auditors to spend time assessing processes and systems "on behalf" of customers which don't recognize 3[sup]rd[/sup] party certificates.
 
Last edited:

Sebastian

Trusted Information Resource
#4
Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

It makes zero sense for 3[sup]rd[/sup] party auditors to spend time assessing processes and systems "on behalf" of customers which don't recognize 3[sup]rd[/sup] party certificates.
Company I work for, every year has example of design and development of product for automotive OEM not requiring TS.
Company I work for, every year does not have example of design and development of product for automotive OEM requiring TS. It has every ~3 years.

Using which of these samples, 3rd party auditor should audit this process ?

P.S.
Discussion is changing direction so it has to be edited somehow and renamed accordingly.
 
Last edited:

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#5
Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

Discussion is changing direction so it has to be edited somehow and renamed accordingly.
I created this new thread to address your comment.

One thing not mentioned yet is the fact that, if CB auditors will now be expected to audit the product lines from non-IATF 16949 subscribing customers, at the suppliers, wouldn't confidentiality aspects be even more sensitive?

Why should an organization grant access to a CB auditor to audit, for example, a Toyota product line with proprietary technology? Some will say: but the CB has a Non Disclosure Agreement. What about the scenario where the CB auditor might be witnessed by an IATF oversight auditor, who, likely work for an automotive OEM who, would love to see such proprietary technology.

I smell conflict of interest...
 

al40

Quite Involved in Discussions
#6
Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

Good comments. I am already hearing from my external auditors that we need to plan on additional time for them to cover all the requirements for the IATF and now my team is spending time trying to ensure we cover all of our customers that could care less about a IATF cert. A lot of manpower and cost is being added to maintain this we are now discussing dropping back to ISO 9001.

Bets wishes,
Al40
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#7
Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

Good comments. I am already hearing from my external auditors that we need to plan on additional time for them to cover all the requirements for the IATF and now my team is spending time trying to ensure we cover all of our customers that could care less about a IATF cert. A lot of manpower and cost is being added to maintain this we are now discussing dropping back to ISO 9001.

Bets wishes,
Al40
This addition of time by the CB smacks of bloodsucking- the rules do not talk about the number of customers as a criteria for adding time.
 

QualitySpirit

Involved In Discussions
#8
Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

I have been to several client sites where none of their clients (Toyota, Honda) cares about TS certification. These clients think it is cool to get TS certificates to attach on the walls.:cool:

If the requirement will be that products/processes of customers not requiring certification must not be audited, then we can't audit/certify these sites at all.:lmao:
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#9
Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

I have been to several client sites where none of their clients (Toyota, Honda) cares about TS certification. These clients think it is cool to get TS certificates to attach on the walls.
Can you name the organizations? I find hard to believe any organization would freely and voluntarily seek certification to the TS 16949 standard without being formally required to do so.
 

QualitySpirit

Involved In Discussions
#10
Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

Can you name the organizations? I find hard to believe any organization would freely and voluntarily seek certification to the TS 16949 standard without being formally required to do so.
Hi, I am sorry that I can't give the names in this public forum. The situation in my country may be different from your country.

I have been to several organizations seek certification with reasons other than customer requirements.

Some of them want the certification for advertisement;

Some of them have to get certification because their CEO wants to keep a tight standard;

Some of them want it to make sure that they can readily expand their business to customers who require TS;

This is what happens here :cool:
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
R IATF 16949 - Outsourcing of internal audits Internal Auditing 10
H Remote product audits in Coivd-19 - IATF 16949 9.2.2.4 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
C Design and implementation of process audits as defined within IATF 16949 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
H IATF 16949 9.2.2.3 - Manufacturing process audits IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
Sidney Vianna Top 10 Major and minor NC's during IATF 16949:2016 Audits IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 8
P Interesting Discussion IATF 16949:2016 Clause 9.2.2.3 and Layered Process Audits IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 18
B Going into IATF 16949 transition without Internal Audits IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
V IATF 16949 Manufacturing Process & Product Audits IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
J IATF 16949 - 3 Year Calendar Period for Audits IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
W IATF 16949 Clause 8.4.2.4.1 Second Party Audits (Supplier Management) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 45
Q Scheduling IATF 16949 Audits - Audit Man-Days IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
julsbear When will registrars begin audits for IATF 16949:2016? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 12
O Informational Ford Motor Company Customer Specific Requirements for IATF 16949:2016 - 08 Jan 2021 Customer and Company Specific Requirements 0
B Updated IATF 16949 - Will IATF 16949 get revised when ISO 9001:202X is released? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
O Release of Sanctioned Interpretations (SIs) related to Rules 5th Edition and Sanctioned Interpretations related to IATF 16949:2016 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 0
S Thoughts on managing ISO 9001, 13485, IATF 16949 and 17025 ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 33
P IATF 16949 requirement - error-proofing in control plan IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
eule del ayre Documented Information - Periodic Review of Documents? IATF 16949:2016 / ISO 9001:2015 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 34
Crimpshrine13 Laboratory Scope - Calibration vs. Test Methods - IATF 16949 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
earl62 What is the best way to control special characteristics in Control plan? Is it Mandatory to have SPC for IATF 16949? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 12
L IATF 16949 certification costs IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
B FCA US Customer Specific IATF 16949- Critical Characteristics 8.6.2 Customer and Company Specific Requirements 0
B IATF 16949 News Six month extension on all valid IATF 16949 certs IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 10
earl62 IATF 16949 Clause 9.1.1.1 - What is the batch conformance to specification method? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
B FCA US IATF 16949 Customer Requirements updates Customer and Company Specific Requirements 3
S Can assembly manufacturing sub-supplier be certified IATF 16949? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
D IATF 16949 Requirement for CMMI in a Global Company Elsmar Cove Forum Suggestions, Complaints, Problems and Bug Reports 0
M Tips on preparing for IATF 16949 Internal Lead Auditor exam Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
A IATF 16949 4.3.1 - Determining the scope of the quality management system - supplemental IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
S Definition of "worldwide" in view of IATF 16949 and Product conformity IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
R Where does IATF 16949 address Process mapping? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
A Document "Correspondence IATF 16949 vs ISO13485" available? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 0
S IATF 16949 - Partial traceability of Aftermarket products IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
M IATF 16949 8.5.1.3 Verification of job set-ups - Do we need secondary check? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
C Industrial scales and MSA (IATF 16949 requirement 7.1.5.1.1) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 30
V Generic IATF 16949 Audit Checklist wanted IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
M Scope of Combined ISO 9001 and IATF 16949 QMS - Non-automotive customers ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
D Postpone IATF 16949 audit due to COVID-19 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 41
J Does anyone have an excel IATF 16949 Internal Audit checklist I could use? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
T Reaction Plan To Drive suppliers to IATF 16949 registration IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
B IATF 16949 - Is a Deviation required for sample components in a prototype build? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
C IATF 16949 - Scope or not? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
L "IATF-Compliant" IATF 16949:2016 certification? What does this mean? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
B Go Beyond ISO 9001 WITH IATF 16949 (January 28) [Paid] Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1
V IATF 16949 8.4.1 Control of externally provided processes, products and services - Should the CB be on our Approved Supplier List? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 10
S Can we provide training plan as corrective action for IATF 16949 Non conformity? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
Q VDA 6.3 questions vs IATF 16949 clauses VDA Standards - Germany's Automotive Standards 0
N IATF 16949:2016 7.1.5.3.2 External Laboratory - How to approve the Testing Laboratory without accreditation scope IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
M IATF 16949 (6.1.1 - Planning and Risk Analysis for a remote site) Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 5
D IATF 16949 FAQ 24 (8.4.2.2 Countries of Destination) - How is this actually being interpreted? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3

Similar threads

Top Bottom