IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customers

[Crimpshrine13]

Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

I have been to several client sites where none of their clients (Toyota, Honda) cares about TS certification. These clients think it is cool to get TS certificates to attach on the walls.

If the requirement will be that products/processes of customers not requiring certification must not be audited, then we can't audit/certify these sites at all.

The biggest problem with this is, like in our case, our OEM customers are 100% Japanese who care less about TS certification, but we're tier 2, and our tier 1 customers who supply to these OEMs require TS certification. I hate when these tier 2 suppliers just copy and paste everything from TS book, and then say that suppliers must be certified to TS. This has already gotten us to trouble many times. Some of our parts coming from Japan are made by ISO-certified company but if our customers don't allow it, that'll get us into trouble - unless our customers okay'd it, in which they never respond to my inquiry!!!!! (and yet imported parts are non-fab, so they can't audit anyway, but the auditors looks at the compliance to customer requirements and they are getting us into trouble!)

 

[QualitySpirit]

Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

The biggest problem with this is, like in our case, our OEM customers are 100% Japanese who care less about TS certification, but we're tier 2, and our tier 1 customers who supply to these OEMs require TS certification. I hate when these tier 2 suppliers just copy and paste everything from TS book, and then say that suppliers must be certified to TS. This has already gotten us to trouble many times. Some of our parts coming from Japan are made by ISO-certified company but if our customers don't allow it, that'll get us into trouble - unless our customers okay'd it, in which they never respond to my inquiry!!!!! (and yet imported parts are non-fab, so they can't audit anyway, but the auditors looks at the compliance to customer requirements and they are getting us into trouble!)

Wait, why when they copy TS book, it becomes that all suppliers must get certified to TS???

Only 3rd party certification to ISO9001 is mandatory. If your suppliers are certified only to ISO9001, you just need a supplier development plan. Auditors can't write any nonconformity for suppliers not being certified to TS.

 

[Crimpshrine13]

Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

Wait, why when they copy TS book, it becomes that all suppliers must get certified to TS???

Only 3rd party certification to ISO9001 is mandatory. If your suppliers are certified only to ISO9001, you just need a supplier development plan. Auditors can't write any nonconformity for suppliers not being certified to TS.

If it is required by tier 1, regardless whether the OEM requires it or not, it is considered non-conforming, and that's what our customers (tier 1) do. Some companies just want to fit everyone into this and unknowingly getting their suppliers into trouble is what it is. Maybe some of the customers (OEMs) are the Big 3, but they shouldn't apply it to all suppliers. And they never respond to the conflicts, and they still order GM parts to us even though it is coming from our parent company who is only certified to ISO. If they are okay with it, they should remove that statement requiring TS certification from their supplier handbook.

 

[Icy Mountain]

Re: Differences between IATF16949:2016 vs TS16949:2009

Get ready. The rules now require that all automotive products/process go thru TS regardless if your customer wants it or not. So you can get dinged on TS things that will leave your customer shaking his head because he doesn't really care about it.

We had a combined ISO9001/TS16949 certification. The rules for certification schemes changed to include this for dual certifications in October 2013. Many were caught unawares. We dropped our TS16949 certification as the majority of our customers had no idea what a PPAP was. I wasn't about to do go back and apply the 6-pack to products designed 10 years ago for customers who don't give a lick what kind of third-party audits we have.

Guess what? I haven't lost a single customer. In fact, none of my customers, even the ones that say they require 16949, actually require it if you can give them a full APQP/PPAP to their standards.

 

[Jen Kirley]

Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

I am so glad I failed my exam in Detroit and did not qualify to audit TS 16949 in 2012!

 

[Stijloor]

Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

I am so glad I failed my exam in Detroit and did not qualify to audit TS 16949 in 2012!

We need you Jen!

 

[Jen Kirley]

Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

We need you Jen!

You are very kind, but it is not worth the headache. And it is getting worse.

 

[Howard Atkins]

Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

You are very kind, but it is not worth the headache. And it is getting worse.

As one that has passed also for IATF how right you are
It is getting worse and even more pedantic for us

 

[Golfman25]

Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

They are chasing everyone away.

 

[angel1204]

Re: IATF 16949 Audits to include Processes and Products from Non Subscribing Customer

That's probably the biggest mistake the IATF could have made, in my opinion.

To mandate that the scope of the audit mandatorily include the product lines from automotive customers which do not subscribe to the IATF 16949 standard for it's supply chain is prone to create friction between registrants, their customers and their CB auditors and dilute the audit effectiveness for the clients which mandate the certification.

In the aerospace sector, CB's are expected to spread the audit time in proportion of the organization's aero customers, which, in many cases, does not make much sense either.

If I had my way, one of the changes I would make to the accredited management system certification is to ensure, during the audit planning that, auditors only spend time assessing aspects of the system connected with issues for customers which mandate certification.

It makes zero sense for 3[sup]rd[/sup] party auditors to spend time assessing processes and systems "on behalf" of customers which don't recognize 3[sup]rd[/sup] party certificates.

Can't agree more...