IATF 16949 - Cl. 8.4.2.3 - Which type of suppliers could be exempt of ISO 9001

Ferreira_Portugal

Starting to get Involved
#1
Dear colleagues,

As probably many of you, the company where I am working is in transition phase to the IATF standard and we are adpting our procedures to the new requirements and of course doing some improvements in them.

Currently we are working in the purchasing procedures and in regards to the requirement above (8.4.2.3), the team working with me, would like to consider in the procedure some special cases of suppliers and/ or service providers for which would not be required the ISO9001 as minimun quality certification.

As exception we would like to consider:
1 - The ESAT suppliers (ESAT means establishments that works with people with disabilities)
2 - distributors of components or materials in case of catalogue supplies ( ensuring that the producer is certified)
3 - suppliers of packaging
4 - suppliers of industrial means.

Honestly, I have serious doubts that ít may be acceptable by na auditor and worse, if we should write this in a procedure !!!

In the old TS 16949, for the clause 7.4.1.2 there were some sanctioned interpretations, which could help us to discuss with the auditor that we could have some exceptions. Example is the bullet that says : The organization shall have decision criteria for determining "specially designated small suppliers" wherein certain specified elements of ISO9001:2008 or ISO/TS 16949:2009 may be waived. Records of the established criteria and decision taken accordingly shall be maintained. "Small" here above may refer to the volume supplied to the automotive industry or to the organization

Now, I think there is no Sanctioned intepretations, therefore, probably the only solution we may have to work with these suppliers it is if we got the approval from our several customers, what is not easy to get and manage.

Can you please give me your opinion and advice?

Thanks

Ferreira
 
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Sebastian

Trusted Information Resource
#2
Look at 8.4.2 c.
What a risk to your product conformity is generated by 2 - 4?
How effective are their controls without management system? Do they apply any controls?

If you found, that risk to your product is significant or controls might be ineffective, so you have option a) in 8.4.2.3, but you have to get your customer's authorisation for that.
 

Ferreira_Portugal

Starting to get Involved
#3
Hello Sebastian,
Thanks by your quick reply. Much appreciated.

I understand you point...
but if you find or evaluate that the risk is not significant for the product? can you, in such situation, accept a supplier non certified in the ISO9001?
 

Sebastian

Trusted Information Resource
#4
You can be authorised by your customer not to require ISO 9001 certification from these suppliers. OK, but you are still required to develop their system of managing quality of product/service you purchase. So, second party audit is an option here.

Generally this requirement is old story and 3rd party auditors I know were very practical in this matter so far. Before risk based thinking was a requirement, they evaluated impact/importance of supplied products/services, occurring issues and whether they were related to suppliers. Based on this they ask or not for supplier certification status.

Now it get somehow legalized when you take a look on section 8.4.2.5. Risk, performance, audit findings and certification status - I would put them in a little bit other order than presented by IATF, would tell you who is your priority supplier for development activities. ISO/TS 16949 note become requirement.

I don't think auditor would question your decisions, as long there are no issues related to low priority suppliers without certification.
 

Ferreira_Portugal

Starting to get Involved
#5
OK Sebastian, understood.
Anyway and taking into consideration the cl 8.4.2.3, we need to get the approval from our customer(s), right? what usually is a mess :mad:.

My concern is also if it is not a "shot in the feet" writing this in a procedure, because I don't see in any part of the IATF book that the organization can decide autonomously to work with a supplier non certified. Always is required the customer approval, right?

Other doubt that comes to me is about the second party audit applicable in these situations !!! Should we do a system audit based on ISO14001 standard (with the risk to find several deviations) or a process audit like VDA 6.3 would be acceptable?
 

Sebastian

Trusted Information Resource
#6
My personal experience is, that auditors do not ask for procedures, instructions and other documents as long auditee is competent and answers properly auditor's questions. In case of concerns, they sometimes ask for documents and if they found clear statement, that ... do not need certified quality management system without any conditions, so they will issue a nonconformity.

IATF 16949 was written as all automotive customers' voice and repeats that only customer has authority to approve or not some deviations. If non-certified supplier is "easy" to or definitely would be find by auditor because of product/service supplied, you have no other choice as contact your customer. I know it is hard, but in my opinion it is much easier than implementing corrective actions, when there is not so much time.

Second party audits has to be based on quality management standard. As I know VDA 6.3, it does not cover all requirements of ISO 9001. I heard also one auditor familiar with both standards clearly saying, it does not, so I think it can't be used as replacement for ISO 9001.
 

mbehmazia

Involved In Discussions
#7
Sebastian, so if I understand you correctly, if my company is IATF certified, we do not have to mandate our Tier II suppliers to be IATF certified also, we just have to perform second party auditing on all our suppliers to make sure they are ISO9001 compliant correct?
 

tongxiaozhi

Involved In Discussions
#8
Thanks for your post. I have a similar questin regarding the scope of our supplier that needs ISO9001 and evaluation. Currently, we have
(1) raw material supplier and distributors
(2) componenent supplier
(3) Mould supplier and spare part suplier, outsourcing for mould part, like machining and
(4) Equipment supplier and spare part supplier
(5) Sorting ,testing, calibration supplier
(6) Packaging supplier
(7)Shipping service supplier

In total, we have more than 400 suppliers, but ,for important suppliers, we only have a few, like raw material and component.

It states in 8.4.1.1 that" the organization shal include all products and sercies that affect customer requirements" based on this definition , I think all suppliers effect customer requirements.

Also, it states in 8.4.2.3 that " the organization shall require their suppliers of autotomive products and services to develop, implement and improve a quality management system certified to ISO9001"

Does it mean that we need ISO9001 for all suppliers and need evalution for all suppliers?

thanks in advance for your reply.
 

Sebastian

Trusted Information Resource
#9
Dear mbehmazia, probably I was not precise enough.
Mandate to not seek IATF 16949 certification at all?
No.
Getting customer's waiver for current lack of ISO 9001 certification and confirming ISO 9001 compliance through second party audits?
Yes.

Dear tongxiaozhi, let's compare ISO/TS 16949:2009 requirement to IATF 16949:2016 (ISO 9001:2015)

ISO/TS 16949 section 7.4.1.2 has no limitations. So it means all suppliers, even shop floor cleaning agency as you will.
ISO 9001:2015 section 8.4.1 says about products being incorporated, direct products and any unidentified organizational processes. Much better, except c)
IATF 16949:2016 section 8.4.1.1 presents examples of c), but they left there an opened door "... that affects customer requirements ...". It can be anything.
IATF 16949:2016 section 8.4.1.2 gives some limitation to c), through "... supplier's risk to...". Ok, so it is up to us. More precise up to our risk analysis and how lucky we will be.

Requirements of following sections are all applicable to these suppliers, selected by us according to 8.4.1, 8.4.1.1 and 8.4.1.2.
 
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