IATF 16949 manufacturing cell in ISO 9001 factory?

#1
I've been tasked with conducting a gap analysis on our current facility. We are ISO9001 and are currently negotiating a new 5 years contract worth millions with a new customer. However, the new customer wants us to be IATF accredited, I'd just like press you for some guidance on this. The new product line will be in a cell of its own within the factory, could we in effect have that manufacturing cell IATF, and the rest of the factory ISO, or would we have to be totally re-accredited to IATF?

Could we get accredited to IATF but exclude areas of the facility, (I don't think we can). Reading the standard it says that the only permitted exclusion is product design and development, however that exclusion must be justified and documentation maintained. I don't really see a way of running a cell as IATF, and the rest of the factory as ISO, unless you can point me in the right direction.

I've been given a week by our general manager to advise him of our options, and likely the best option.

Our options are:
1. IATF accreditation of the whole facility as it stands now
2. IATF accreditation of just that production cell, leaving the rest of the factory ISO if possible.
3. Put production of the new customers products into our existing IATF facility next door. There is an issue with this as the facility next door is a separate company to ours and therefore has a totally independent financial structure, and products etc. This is not the preferred option.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#2
From the rules
5.2
h} if a portion of the site is dedicated to automotive, then the headcount from that portion can be used to determine audit time when the following conditions are met:
- approval from the relevant Oversight office is received prior to implementation;
- all automotive manufacturing processes are physically separated from non-automotive
manufacturing {e.g., separate building, permanent barrier in between automotive and non-
automotive lines or machines, etc. };
- personnel working in the automotive manufacturing process areas are completely dedicated;
- all support activity personnel are included in the headcount;
- the same ratio should be applied to the support activity headcount-
Note: If automotive manufacturing processes are integrated on the manufacturing floor with non-
automotive manufacturing processes, then this requirement cannot be applied.
 
#3
Ok... So after reading your reply I'll give you a more forensic overview of the company.

We build and supply dampers for both the road and race industries. We are currently ISO9001 and have had no need to move up to IATF. Most of our work is low volume race dampers for F1, touring car etc so aren't bound by the same legislation as road car dampers. For all intents and purposes as the F1 teams change spec every year the dampers are constantly under review race dampers can be looked upon as protoype developement dampers.

we also supply some car manufacturers (high end performance cars) with road dampers. Again we've never had to go the IATF route for any of these customers.

Now our new customer with this big contract will be looking at us to satisfy their own quality requirements (all based on IATF) so where does that leave us with our other products?
 
#4
Our facility is 9001 and IATF certified. We have with multiple customers and a single customer who requires IATF certification. So it is definitely possible to certify a piece of your operations to IATF while the rest is certified to 9001. However, the way our site is set up the customer that is IATF certified does not share any processes with the customers who are not IATF certified. In this way, this customer is isolated from the rest of the facility while still physically in the same building.

Will your new customer, who is requiring IATF, have their parts manufactured following the same processes as all your other manufacturing? Or will they have their own processes? If that customer will have their own processes then you will be able to limit the scope of your IATF certification to those processes and any support processes (shipping, receiving, purchasing, etc.). If you will be using the same processes, personnel, and equipment as all you other manufacturing you may be looking at getting the entire facility certified to IATF.

good luck!
 
#5
Yes, there may be some manufacturing of some components being conducted in the 9001 part of the factory, so on this basis it looks like we’ll have to certify the whole site?
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Trusted Information Resource
#6
there may be some manufacturing of some components being conducted in the 9001 part of the factory,
Consider also what it might take to reverse this statement...

If it is only a couple of minor processes, how hard would it be to include just those in the IATF area?

ISO9000 folks wont mind their parts being produced under IATF...and it might be an overall easier thing to do.

Just thinking out loud...
 
#7
I suspect it'll grow into a monster, as there are likely supporting processes that would feed into the IATF area, therefore i think we'll probably need to get the site approved. Can individual process be IATF in an area like a machine shop with the other process being ISO?
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Trusted Information Resource
#8
Can it be? Sure...but in my experience it would be less work to do the site, rather than to pick and choose specific (physically intermingled) processes and keep just those up to requirements. Much easier if it is a self contained area with only outputs to other areas of the plant.

But anything's possible (almost).
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
#9
Time out. Stop thinking in terms of "site" and more in terms of product lines. One is an automotive product line and thus eligible for IATF. The other is non-automotive (racing, off road and such) and not eligible for IATF. So your facility will have both certifications, but your scopes will be different. ISO scope will be "manufacture of dampers" and your IATF scope will be "manufacture of Automotive dampers." Your IATF auditor will ONLY look at automotive dampers.

Now parts of your organization will support your production. Most obviously will be something like purchasing. IATF has a few wrinkles in how to handle suppliers such as supplier development. So those suppliers that supply things for the automotive dampers will need to follow those wrinkles -- some may supply both and would then be subject to the more stringent IATF requirements. Those that don't supply automotive you can do what you want subject to ISO constraints. You'll have the same issues in your QA/Inspection area with differing PPAP requirements, etc. Some areas like management review would use the more stringent IATF requirements. Etc. Etc.

As for your production area, you appear to be lucky in that you will have a dedicated line. That way you can segregate the people. And here is the the trick -- what is your head count. Head count controls the hours for auditing. The dedicated line allows you to reduce you head count and thus your audit hours. So if you have 150 people in your manufacturing area, but only 10 on your automotive line you're way ahead. We had the unfortunate experience of not having dedicated automotive lines (we are a simple job shop) and only a handful of automotive business. So we had 3 day audits based on head count, which should have only been a day based on automotive volume. Lots of sitting around and wasted time and money.

Now the IATF rules can be tricky. So before you get back to management, pick up the phone and call your registrar (assuming they can do IATF). Talk to them about the situation and the options. Good luck.
 
#10
Time out. Stop thinking in terms of "site" and more in terms of product lines. One is an automotive product line and thus eligible for IATF. The other is non-automotive (racing, off road and such) and not eligible for IATF. So your facility will have both certifications, but your scopes will be different. ISO scope will be "manufacture of dampers" and your IATF scope will be "manufacture of Automotive dampers." Your IATF auditor will ONLY look at automotive dampers.

Now parts of your organization will support your production. Most obviously will be something like purchasing. IATF has a few wrinkles in how to handle suppliers such as supplier development. So those suppliers that supply things for the automotive dampers will need to follow those wrinkles -- some may supply both and would then be subject to the more stringent IATF requirements. Those that don't supply automotive you can do what you want subject to ISO constraints. You'll have the same issues in your QA/Inspection area with differing PPAP requirements, etc. Some areas like management review would use the more stringent IATF requirements. Etc. Etc.

As for your production area, you appear to be lucky in that you will have a dedicated line. That way you can segregate the people. And here is the the trick -- what is your head count. Head count controls the hours for auditing. The dedicated line allows you to reduce you head count and thus your audit hours. So if you have 150 people in your manufacturing area, but only 10 on your automotive line you're way ahead. We had the unfortunate experience of not having dedicated automotive lines (we are a simple job shop) and only a handful of automotive business. So we had 3 day audits based on head count, which should have only been a day based on automotive volume. Lots of sitting around and wasted time and money.

Now the IATF rules can be tricky. So before you get back to management, pick up the phone and call your registrar (assuming they can do IATF). Talk to them about the situation and the options. Good luck.

That's pretty much what I thought... The supporting processes will be governed by IATF, but we will in effect be able to run the automotive cell as it's own IATF entity. It can get confusing in apartments like QA which would probably be best run in line with IATF so save issues further on down the line.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
S Can assembly manufacturing sub-supplier be certified IATF 16949? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
C IATF 16949 8.3 Exclusion - Manufacturing process design and development IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
J Manufacturing Process Auditor Requirements - IATF 16949 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
H IATF 16949 9.2.2.3 - Manufacturing process audits IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
M Requirement for manufacturing process validation in IATF 16949 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 8
B IATF 16949 - Different Registrars for remote and manufacturing sites? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
V IATF 16949 Manufacturing Process & Product Audits IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
M IATF 16949 Cl. 8.3 - Manufacturing process design and development IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
S IATF 16949 - Manufacturing and Product Audit Approach IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 19
M IATF 16949 - Cl. 8.3.3 - Product design inputs, manufacturing process design inputs IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
L IATF 16949 Cl. 8.3.3.2 Manufacturing process design input - Process capability IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
A IATF 16949 Cl. 8.3.5.2 e) - Manufacturing Process Flow Charts & Layout IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
D IATF 16949 Requirement for CMMI in a Global Company Elsmar Cove Forum Suggestions, Complaints, Problems and Bug Reports 0
M Tips on preparing for IATF 16949 Internal Lead Auditor exam Manufacturing and Related Processes 1
A IATF 16949 4.3.1 - Determining the scope of the quality management system - supplemental IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
S Definition of "worldwide" in view of IATF 16949 and Product conformity IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
R Where does IATF 16949 address Process mapping? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
A Document "Correspondence IATF 16949 vs ISO13485" available? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 0
H Remote product audits in Coivd-19 - IATF 16949 9.2.2.4 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
S IATF 16949 - Partial traceability of Aftermarket products IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
M IATF 16949 8.5.1.3 Verification of job set-ups - Do we need secondary check? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
C Industrial scales and MSA (IATF 16949 requirement 7.1.5.1.1) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 30
V Generic IATF 16949 Audit Checklist wanted IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
M Scope of Combined ISO 9001 and IATF 16949 QMS - Non-automotive customers ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
D Postpone IATF 16949 audit due to COVID-19 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 34
J Does anyone have an excel IATF 16949 Internal Audit checklist I could use? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
T Reaction Plan To Drive suppliers to IATF 16949 registration IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
B IATF 16949 - Is a Deviation required for sample components in a prototype build? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
C IATF 16949 - Scope or not? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
L "IATF-Compliant" IATF 16949:2016 certification? What does this mean? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 13
B Go Beyond ISO 9001 WITH IATF 16949 (January 28) [Paid] Training - Internal, External, Online and Distance Learning 1
V IATF 16949 8.4.1 Control of externally provided processes, products and services - Should the CB be on our Approved Supplier List? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 10
S Can we provide training plan as corrective action for IATF 16949 Non conformity? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
C Design and implementation of process audits as defined within IATF 16949 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
Q VDA 6.3 questions vs IATF 16949 clauses VDA Standards - Germany's Automotive Standards 0
N IATF 16949:2016 7.1.5.3.2 External Laboratory - How to approve the Testing Laboratory without accreditation scope IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
M IATF 16949 (6.1.1 - Planning and Risk Analysis for a remote site) Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 5
D IATF 16949 FAQ 24 (8.4.2.2 Countries of Destination) - How is this actually being interpreted? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
Jimmy123 What is the difference between Error Proofing and Controls? ISO/IATF 16949 - Control Plans FMEA and Control Plans 16
P IATF 16949 8.4.2.4 Supplier Monitoring IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
V IATF 16949 9.2.2.1 Internal Audit Program - "Process Changes" IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 11
Sidney Vianna IATF 16949 News Presentations from the latest IATF Stakeholder Event - Expectation that IATF 16949 certification should equate with product quality. Misguided? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
J IATF 16949 8.4.1.2 Supplier selection process IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
M IATF 16949 CAPITULO 7.3.2 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
Casana IATF 16949 7.1.5.3.2 External Laboratory - On Site Calibration IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 8
M IATF 16949 7.2.3 Internal Auditor Competency - Trainer's competency Internal Auditing 7
P IATF 16949 Clause 8.4.2.3 - Justification for non-certified suppliers IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 12
M IATF 16949:2016 clause 8.4.2.3 - We don't have ISO 9001:2015 certificate IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 26
T New role Quality Manager IATF 16949, new company, advise how to get started IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
R Material safety data sheet (MSDS) related clause in IATF 16949 manual IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 17
Similar threads


















































Top Bottom