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IATF 16949 manufacturing cell in ISO 9001 factory?

#1
I've been tasked with conducting a gap analysis on our current facility. We are ISO9001 and are currently negotiating a new 5 years contract worth millions with a new customer. However, the new customer wants us to be IATF accredited, I'd just like press you for some guidance on this. The new product line will be in a cell of its own within the factory, could we in effect have that manufacturing cell IATF, and the rest of the factory ISO, or would we have to be totally re-accredited to IATF?

Could we get accredited to IATF but exclude areas of the facility, (I don't think we can). Reading the standard it says that the only permitted exclusion is product design and development, however that exclusion must be justified and documentation maintained. I don't really see a way of running a cell as IATF, and the rest of the factory as ISO, unless you can point me in the right direction.

I've been given a week by our general manager to advise him of our options, and likely the best option.

Our options are:
1. IATF accreditation of the whole facility as it stands now
2. IATF accreditation of just that production cell, leaving the rest of the factory ISO if possible.
3. Put production of the new customers products into our existing IATF facility next door. There is an issue with this as the facility next door is a separate company to ours and therefore has a totally independent financial structure, and products etc. This is not the preferred option.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Admin
#2
From the rules
5.2
h} if a portion of the site is dedicated to automotive, then the headcount from that portion can be used to determine audit time when the following conditions are met:
- approval from the relevant Oversight office is received prior to implementation;
- all automotive manufacturing processes are physically separated from non-automotive
manufacturing {e.g., separate building, permanent barrier in between automotive and non-
automotive lines or machines, etc. };
- personnel working in the automotive manufacturing process areas are completely dedicated;
- all support activity personnel are included in the headcount;
- the same ratio should be applied to the support activity headcount-
Note: If automotive manufacturing processes are integrated on the manufacturing floor with non-
automotive manufacturing processes, then this requirement cannot be applied.
 
#3
Ok... So after reading your reply I'll give you a more forensic overview of the company.

We build and supply dampers for both the road and race industries. We are currently ISO9001 and have had no need to move up to IATF. Most of our work is low volume race dampers for F1, touring car etc so aren't bound by the same legislation as road car dampers. For all intents and purposes as the F1 teams change spec every year the dampers are constantly under review race dampers can be looked upon as protoype developement dampers.

we also supply some car manufacturers (high end performance cars) with road dampers. Again we've never had to go the IATF route for any of these customers.

Now our new customer with this big contract will be looking at us to satisfy their own quality requirements (all based on IATF) so where does that leave us with our other products?
 
#4
Our facility is 9001 and IATF certified. We have with multiple customers and a single customer who requires IATF certification. So it is definitely possible to certify a piece of your operations to IATF while the rest is certified to 9001. However, the way our site is set up the customer that is IATF certified does not share any processes with the customers who are not IATF certified. In this way, this customer is isolated from the rest of the facility while still physically in the same building.

Will your new customer, who is requiring IATF, have their parts manufactured following the same processes as all your other manufacturing? Or will they have their own processes? If that customer will have their own processes then you will be able to limit the scope of your IATF certification to those processes and any support processes (shipping, receiving, purchasing, etc.). If you will be using the same processes, personnel, and equipment as all you other manufacturing you may be looking at getting the entire facility certified to IATF.

good luck!
 
#5
Yes, there may be some manufacturing of some components being conducted in the 9001 part of the factory, so on this basis it looks like we’ll have to certify the whole site?
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Trusted
#6
there may be some manufacturing of some components being conducted in the 9001 part of the factory,
Consider also what it might take to reverse this statement...

If it is only a couple of minor processes, how hard would it be to include just those in the IATF area?

ISO9000 folks wont mind their parts being produced under IATF...and it might be an overall easier thing to do.

Just thinking out loud...
 
#7
I suspect it'll grow into a monster, as there are likely supporting processes that would feed into the IATF area, therefore i think we'll probably need to get the site approved. Can individual process be IATF in an area like a machine shop with the other process being ISO?
 

Ninja

Looking for Reality
Trusted
#8
Can it be? Sure...but in my experience it would be less work to do the site, rather than to pick and choose specific (physically intermingled) processes and keep just those up to requirements. Much easier if it is a self contained area with only outputs to other areas of the plant.

But anything's possible (almost).
 
#9
Time out. Stop thinking in terms of "site" and more in terms of product lines. One is an automotive product line and thus eligible for IATF. The other is non-automotive (racing, off road and such) and not eligible for IATF. So your facility will have both certifications, but your scopes will be different. ISO scope will be "manufacture of dampers" and your IATF scope will be "manufacture of Automotive dampers." Your IATF auditor will ONLY look at automotive dampers.

Now parts of your organization will support your production. Most obviously will be something like purchasing. IATF has a few wrinkles in how to handle suppliers such as supplier development. So those suppliers that supply things for the automotive dampers will need to follow those wrinkles -- some may supply both and would then be subject to the more stringent IATF requirements. Those that don't supply automotive you can do what you want subject to ISO constraints. You'll have the same issues in your QA/Inspection area with differing PPAP requirements, etc. Some areas like management review would use the more stringent IATF requirements. Etc. Etc.

As for your production area, you appear to be lucky in that you will have a dedicated line. That way you can segregate the people. And here is the the trick -- what is your head count. Head count controls the hours for auditing. The dedicated line allows you to reduce you head count and thus your audit hours. So if you have 150 people in your manufacturing area, but only 10 on your automotive line you're way ahead. We had the unfortunate experience of not having dedicated automotive lines (we are a simple job shop) and only a handful of automotive business. So we had 3 day audits based on head count, which should have only been a day based on automotive volume. Lots of sitting around and wasted time and money.

Now the IATF rules can be tricky. So before you get back to management, pick up the phone and call your registrar (assuming they can do IATF). Talk to them about the situation and the options. Good luck.
 
#10
Time out. Stop thinking in terms of "site" and more in terms of product lines. One is an automotive product line and thus eligible for IATF. The other is non-automotive (racing, off road and such) and not eligible for IATF. So your facility will have both certifications, but your scopes will be different. ISO scope will be "manufacture of dampers" and your IATF scope will be "manufacture of Automotive dampers." Your IATF auditor will ONLY look at automotive dampers.

Now parts of your organization will support your production. Most obviously will be something like purchasing. IATF has a few wrinkles in how to handle suppliers such as supplier development. So those suppliers that supply things for the automotive dampers will need to follow those wrinkles -- some may supply both and would then be subject to the more stringent IATF requirements. Those that don't supply automotive you can do what you want subject to ISO constraints. You'll have the same issues in your QA/Inspection area with differing PPAP requirements, etc. Some areas like management review would use the more stringent IATF requirements. Etc. Etc.

As for your production area, you appear to be lucky in that you will have a dedicated line. That way you can segregate the people. And here is the the trick -- what is your head count. Head count controls the hours for auditing. The dedicated line allows you to reduce you head count and thus your audit hours. So if you have 150 people in your manufacturing area, but only 10 on your automotive line you're way ahead. We had the unfortunate experience of not having dedicated automotive lines (we are a simple job shop) and only a handful of automotive business. So we had 3 day audits based on head count, which should have only been a day based on automotive volume. Lots of sitting around and wasted time and money.

Now the IATF rules can be tricky. So before you get back to management, pick up the phone and call your registrar (assuming they can do IATF). Talk to them about the situation and the options. Good luck.

That's pretty much what I thought... The supporting processes will be governed by IATF, but we will in effect be able to run the automotive cell as it's own IATF entity. It can get confusing in apartments like QA which would probably be best run in line with IATF so save issues further on down the line.
 
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