IATF 16949 Not a Stand Alone System?

Q

QSAGUY

#1
According to IATF Press release Dated 09 AUG 2016

"IATF 16949:2016 is not a stand-alone quality management standard, but is implemented as a supplement to, and in conjunction with, ISO 9001:2015"

If IATF TS 16949 will not be a stand alone system does this mean we will have to first implement ISO 9001:2015 and audit to the new standard and then implement TS 16949?
 
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Cari Spears

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#2
"... is implemented as a supplement to, and in conjunction with, ISO 9001:2015"
Hi, GUY :bigwave:

What the "as a supplement to" means is, IATF 16949 is an ISO-based standard. It contains ISO9001 in its entirety, and adds stuff here and there to make things automotive specific. There are other ISO-based standards for other sectors, such as AS9100 for aerospace. The ISO text is regular, and the sector specific additions are in bold italic font.

The "in conjunction" part means in simple terms, that if you're IATF 16949, then you are automatically also ISO9001 registered.
 
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Sidney Vianna

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#3
What the "as a supplement to" means is, IATF 16949 is an ISO-based standard. It contains ISO9001 in it's entirety, and adds stuff here and there to make things automotive specific. There are other ISO-based standards for other sectors, such as AS9100 for aerospace. The ISO text is regular, and the sector specific additions are in bold italic font.
I have a different interpretation of what the press release means and I explained it here.

The "in conjunction" part means in simple terms, that if you're IATF 16949, then you are automatically also ISO9001 registered.
I also don't think this is correct. For some automotive suppliers, the ISO 9001 registration might not be needed and they shouldn't be subjected to it, if they don't want to.
 
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Q

QSAGUY

#4
Maybe I'm reading this wrong but "not stand alone" means that the other quality management system must be implemented. That being said I hope they clear this up in the coming weeks:deadhorse:
 
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Sidney Vianna

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#6
Re: IATF TS 16949 Not a Stand Alone System?

Maybe I'm reading this wrong but "not stand alone" means that the other quality management system must be implemented.
The not stand alone bit refers to the standard, not the system.That means that the not stand alone document, e.g., IATF 16949:2016 invokes the different paragraphs of the baseline document, such as ISO 9001:2015 and, wherever applicable, supplements the paragraph with additional requirements. I gave a hyperlink to an AQAP standard in the other post as an example of a not stand alone "standard" .
 

bpritts

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#7
Re: IATF TS 16949 Not a Stand Alone System?

OK, I am not a member of IATF but having done this for a living since before the sorry birth of QS9000 I believe that I'm on firm ground.

1. Up to and including ISO TS 16949-2009, the standard included the verbatim text of ISO 9001 and additional requirements, of two general sorts: one are entirely independent additions; others are specific interpretations of ISO 9001 requirements. For example, TS requires that preventive maintenance include "predictive maintenance techniques"; this is an independent requirement. In a different situation, ISO 9001 demands internal auditing, but TS prescribes several specific formats for internal audits -- specific details on HOW the ISO 9001 requirement must be addressed in automotive.

2. The IATF 16949:2016 will continue this logical scheme; they've said so.

3. If you build a 16949 compliant system, it will automatically comply with ISO 9001.

4. There is no such thing as a 16949 system that doesn't include ISO 9001. HOWEVER...

5. The REGISTRATION PROCESS is separate, so not all ISO TS 16949 registrations automatically result in an ISO 9001 certificate. One of the registrars I work with charges extra for an ISO 9001 cert; others probably do as well. At the very least, the registrar wants to charge for the "royalty" assessed by their certifying bodies; and they may have different details for their auditing process.

6. If your organization is 100% automotive OEM production, you can stop here... no further worries. :tg: It is hard to imagine why you would care about a separate ISO 9001 cert if you have a TS cert. And, I have one employer who has 80% non-automotive OEM products, 20% automotive OEM; the
TS certificate covers the whole thing, because they use the same management system for all the business, and the products and manufacturing processes are technically similar. All of our non-automotive customers gladly accept our TS cert.

7. It can get more complex if you have a mix of automotive and non-automotive business; the TS scope may not cover your non-automotive business if it is significantly different in character from your automotive business. Say, different divisions with different types of production processes and products. In such a case you might need a separate ISO 9001 cert, if your customers on the non automotive side are finicky. :frust: This might happen, if, say, you make wiring harnesses for both automotive and medical devices.

8. But, NEITHER OF THESE DOCUMENTS are SYSTEMS!!! You will build a management system for your company. Auditors will use ISO 9001 and TS documents, and the associated registration audit mechanisms, as measures of whether the management system you have built meets certain standards.
And, if you're like many companies, your management system will handle other things, too... like environmental, safety, and other requirements.


This whole discussion is unfortunately abstract... but in the end it's not that hard...

best........Brad
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#8
Re: IATF TS 16949 Not a Stand Alone System?

OK, I am not a member of IATF but having done this for a living since before the sorry birth of QS9000 I believe that I'm on firm ground.

1. Up to and including ISO TS 16949-2009, the standard included the verbatim text of ISO 9001 and additional requirements, of two general sorts: one are entirely independent additions; others are specific interpretations of ISO 9001 requirements. For example, TS requires that preventive maintenance include "predictive maintenance techniques"; this is an independent requirement. In a different situation, ISO 9001 demands internal auditing, but TS prescribes several specific formats for internal audits -- specific details on HOW the ISO 9001 requirement must be addressed in automotive.

2. The IATF 16949:2016 will continue this logical scheme; they've said so.

3. If you build a 16949 compliant system, it will automatically comply with ISO 9001.

4. There is no such thing as a 16949 system that doesn't include ISO 9001. HOWEVER...

5. The REGISTRATION PROCESS is separate, so not all ISO TS 16949 registrations automatically result in an ISO 9001 certificate. One of the registrars I work with charges extra for an ISO 9001 cert; others probably do as well. At the very least, the registrar wants to charge for the "royalty" assessed by their certifying bodies; and they may have different details for their auditing process.

6. If your organization is 100% automotive OEM production, you can stop here... no further worries. :tg: It is hard to imagine why you would care about a separate ISO 9001 cert if you have a TS cert. And, I have one employer who has 80% non-automotive OEM products, 20% automotive OEM; the
TS certificate covers the whole thing, because they use the same management system for all the business, and the products and manufacturing processes are technically similar. All of our non-automotive customers gladly accept our TS cert.

7. It can get more complex if you have a mix of automotive and non-automotive business; the TS scope may not cover your non-automotive business if it is significantly different in character from your automotive business. Say, different divisions with different types of production processes and products. In such a case you might need a separate ISO 9001 cert, if your customers on the non automotive side are finicky. :frust: This might happen, if, say, you make wiring harnesses for both automotive and medical devices.

8. But, NEITHER OF THESE DOCUMENTS are SYSTEMS!!! You will build a management system for your company. Auditors will use ISO 9001 and TS documents, and the associated registration audit mechanisms, as measures of whether the management system you have built meets certain standards.
And, if you're like many companies, your management system will handle other things, too... like environmental, safety, and other requirements.


This whole discussion is unfortunately abstract... but in the end it's not that hard...

best........Brad
I have been offering a suggestion... Many of my clients are certified to several standards anyway (14000, 9001, TS, AS, etc.). I encourage you to write a comprehensive company manual, that encapsulates all the requirements from the various standards, and states them in clear, plain language, without all the nonsense phrases in the new standards. Then, you simply have your managers use the manual in place of the standards.... After all, if they are going to make it a money making enterprise, we can fight back...
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#9
Re: IATF TS 16949 Not a Stand Alone System?

And, I have one employer who has 80% non-automotive OEM products, 20% automotive OEM; the TS certificate covers the whole thing, because they use the same management system for all the business, and the products and manufacturing processes are technically similar. All of our non-automotive customers gladly accept our TS cert.
According to the TS Rules, the TS 16949 auditors will ignore customer contracts for 80% of this company's products. They will specifically seek out evidence for only the automotive products. In some companies this will make a bigger difference than for others.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#10
Re: IATF TS 16949 Not a Stand Alone System?

According to the TS Rules, the TS 16949 auditors will ignore customer contracts for 80% of this company's products. They will specifically seek out evidence for only the automotive products. In some companies this will make a bigger difference than for others.
If necessary, we will add a little extra time to focus on the ISO work, particularly if the ISO scope is different than the TS scope.
 
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