IATF 16949 surveillance audit frequency

Dave Cx

Involved In Discussions
#1
All,
When certified to TS we had a surveillance audit frequency of 6 months, when we transitioned to IATF I wanted to change the surveillance frequency to 12 monthly. Our transition was in December & I was contacted latterly by my auditor to set the audit date in May (6 monthly), I challenged this saying I wanted a 12 month frequency (the frequency had not been discussed prior to this).

Now reading between the lines it appears the CB should have had some sort of meeting prior to the transition where the 12 monthly surveillance audit was agreed. This meeting / agreement never happened.

Can anyone advise what the correct process is regarding setting surveillance frequency. To add to the complexity we are in the UK but my CB is a US one, I have contacted the SMMT (as UK global oversight) for advise on this but they cannot help as the CB is under IAOB!
Dave
 

AndyN

A problem shared...
Staff member
Super Moderator
#2
To help others who may read this, the first, cardinal rule is that you don't arrange schedules with the auditor. Your contract is with the CB and their management. The auditor, while representing the CB, is frequently a contractor and has little/no say in such things.

You should contact your CB management - you have a primary representative I suspect - who should take care of these things.
 

Dave Cx

Involved In Discussions
#3
Hi Andy
You are 100% correct in your assumptions, my auditor is a self employed contractor; he doesn't have a [email protected]?.com email he operates through a his personal e-mail which I always thought lacked professionalism on behalf of the CB.

It was only after querying my transition invoice that I found out who my commercial contact within the CB was. I have asked for a quote to transition but never received anything, although we have passed the transition. I suspect the CB is at least obliged to walk me through the transition process beforehand which never happened. As far as I can tell my auditor is a former employee of the CB who has gone solo and pretty much controls the TS/IATF side of things on behalf of the CB, the CB are clearly lacking in being able to deal with this - i have asked to resolve.

The CB will not respond to any request for direction on this although they have an iATF support group based in Europe.

I am inclined to contact the IAOB tell them the situation & ask what the correct transition process is.
Dave
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
Trusted
#5
Hi Andy
You are 100% correct in your assumptions, my auditor is a self employed contractor; he doesn't have a [email protected]?.com email he operates through a his personal e-mail which I always thought lacked professionalism on behalf of the CB.

It was only after querying my transition invoice that I found out who my commercial contact within the CB was. I have asked for a quote to transition but never received anything, although we have passed the transition. I suspect the CB is at least obliged to walk me through the transition process beforehand which never happened. As far as I can tell my auditor is a former employee of the CB who has gone solo and pretty much controls the TS/IATF side of things on behalf of the CB, the CB are clearly lacking in being able to deal with this - i have asked to resolve.

The CB will not respond to any request for direction on this although they have an iATF support group based in Europe.

I am inclined to contact the IAOB tell them the situation & ask what the correct transition process is.
Dave
Since you have the relationship with the auditor, what does he say? He should have all the contact info you need.

And we always would "scheduled" the next audit with our auditor at the current audit. Since it was automotive, she would book up really quick. She was local and we where always able to work something around the holidays so she could stay in town and do her family stuff. The dates would get worked thru the CB. Whenever we have left it up to the CB, it was nothing but a mess. Heck, when we first started I had a CB completely miss our surveillance.
 

AndyN

A problem shared...
Staff member
Super Moderator
#6
Since you have the relationship with the auditor, what does he say? He should have all the contact info you need.

And we always would "scheduled" the next audit with our auditor at the current audit. Since it was automotive, she would book up really quick. She was local and we where always able to work something around the holidays so she could stay in town and do her family stuff. The dates would get worked thru the CB. Whenever we have left it up to the CB, it was nothing but a mess. Heck, when we first started I had a CB completely miss our surveillance.
And this is why organization SHOULD work through the CB office! You wouldn't have your customers calling the guy running the machine making parts would you?
 

Dave Cx

Involved In Discussions
#7
Golfman,
If the auditor was listening to our requirement then ok, but in this case I suspect the auditor has decided 6 monthly frequency & entered into a document suggesting it was agreed. Being self employed he'll claim 2 lots of travelling expenses for each 6 monthly. In all likelihood we would get a minor at a surveillance so that would mean another 1/2 day invoiced by the auditor to close off (working from home / not coming to the site) then an additional 1/2 added onto the next surveillance audit to close off the same minor. We seem to pay a high price for closing minor non conformances we have been invoiced 1 day (@1146/day) for the auditor to close 6 minors from our transition when working from home.

For the 3 day transition +1 day document review we were invoiced for 11 days in total because the audit was 3 days re certification & 3 days transition although the same actual days, we were also invoiced 2 days off site for the auditor to read his notes from the document review & further to write up the audit. I have disputed paying still to be resolved.

If the CB doesn't have any expertise in IATF other than their (sub contract) auditor then they may be just doing as he instructs (the tails wagging the dog). So the maybe the CB invoice us the same days as the auditor invoices them whether justified or not.

Had I known this would happen post transition I would have gone to another CB, also I'm not sure what other IATF auditors my CB has in the UK.
Thanks
Dave
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Staff member
Administrator
#8
I work with a number of CBs for IATF.
All of them mandate 0.5 days for the mandatory document review and that is what I am paid and cannot claim any more.
The transition audit is the recertification audit and is only charged once.

As for 2 days for reading notes, I am sure it was more like 10 minutes:deadhorse::deadhorse:

You are being CHEATED.:mad:
Send all this information to the IAOB as an official complaint.
You contract should spell out how much time on and off site.
Typically there is 0.5 days off site for preplanning and closing CARs. This is a standard part of the contract


In regards to the other aspect.
With some CBs I work with I plan the audits and others they do,
From my point of view as an auditor it is much better and more efficient for me to do it as other wise it has to go through to many hands.
Remember up till now and in the future ever 3 years you need to transition.
Wether I or the CB plans the length is decided by the CB as per the table in the rules.

Please feel free to contact me off line if you want.
 

Dave Cx

Involved In Discussions
#9
Thanks Howard
There's a dawning reality to this thread that I am being turned over. :frust: I have contacted the CB head office in the US with my concern.

Also I have informed the IAOB that I have raised a concern with 1 of their CB's quoting my certification etc, without expanding on what the concern actually is; just that I may wish to contact them should the CB not address this appropriately.

So now I've stirred the water I'll sit tight and see floats to the surface!
Regards
Dave
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#10
I work with a number of CBs for IATF.
All of them mandate 0.5 days for the mandatory document review and that is what I am paid and cannot claim any more.
The transition audit is the recertification audit and is only charged once.

As for 2 days for reading notes, I am sure it was more like 10 minutes:deadhorse::deadhorse:

You are being CHEATED.:mad:
Send all this information to the IAOB as an official complaint.
You contract should spell out how much time on and off site.
Typically there is 0.5 days off site for preplanning and closing CARs. This is a standard part of the contract


In regards to the other aspect.
With some CBs I work with I plan the audits and others they do,
From my point of view as an auditor it is much better and more efficient for me to do it as other wise it has to go through to many hands.
Remember up till now and in the future ever 3 years you need to transition.
Wether I or the CB plans the length is decided by the CB as per the table in the rules.

Please feel free to contact me off line if you want.
Howard... are you saying people have 3 more years to transition? Please clarify...
 
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