IATF CB Auditor questions Internal Auditor Competence

#1
Hello,
I recently started as a Quality Manager for a company that is IATF 16949 certified. We had our surveillance audit these past 2 days.
The third party registration auditor told me that I wasn't competent because I haven't had any IATF 16949 classes.
I currently hold a AS9100:2009 lead auditor certificate and have completed AIAG Core Tools.
The clause he pointed out is 7.2.3
a) understanding of the automotive process approach for auditing, including risk-based thinking;
b) understanding of applicable customer-specific requirements and
d) understanding of applicable core tool requirements related to the scope of the audit
AS9100 included the process approach. So I think that's incorrect, sure it wasn't the Automotive but doesn't the core tool catch that?
Customer specific requirements: I review contracts all the time and IATF is damn prescriptive
Core tools: As stated above I took a Core tools class through AIAG

What are your opinions on this?
Tthanks,
Julie
 
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John C. Abnet

Teacher, sensei, kennari
Staff member
#2
I wasn't competent because I haven't had any IATF 16949 classes.
Good day @J. Keene

There is no requirement for any such "IATF classes". While it IS helpful and I DO recommend it, there simply is NO requirement for auditor training or "certification".

Ask him/her to show you the clause you are violating (i.e. RULE - ACTUAL = GAP)

They will not be able to. You are competent if you are conducting valuable and actionable internal audits as required by the limited amount of requirements stated within the relative 9.2 and 7.2 clauses of the standard.

If you are able to show competency, then contest the nonconformance.

Hope this helps.
Be well.
 
#3
Your CB auditor is the one lacking in competency. If they wrote an NC please return it to the CSR you deal with (or account manager). Please write to the Operations management of your CB and explain that they must take action to correct this auditor's non-conformity and that, were it not for the IATF rules, the auditor would NOT be returning in future.
 

Johnnymo62

Haste Makes Waste
#4
Ask for the definition of automotive process approach.

Also, are you in the position of lead auditor? If not, then you are not required to prove competence to the automotive process approach.
 

malasuerte

Involved In Discussions
#5
Well - Johnny has a good question which I don't think is discerned in the OP....are you the lead auditor, or even an auditor? Or are you the manager of the auditors. While you could say that the mgr should know about the job, I would not stretch it to say you need to meet the clause.

However, if you are the lead auditor/auditor for your business then, as opposed to the others, I think it is a valid NC. It sounds like you are partly there.
  • But you do need to have a way to achieve the competency and be able to show it - could be web based training, you reading a book, OJT, etc. But yes, by saying IATF "classes" as the end all is wrong.
It sounds like you may be missing:
C) The requirements in the standard state that the auditor competence includes understanding the IATF requirements. You don't state in the OP if you know and understand the requirements of IATF? If you do understand, then check this one off.

B) Also - Case in point: you don't know what Customer Specific Requirements are; by your own writing in the OP. CSRs are not customer requirements. Unless I misunderstood your sentence about contracts? But as written it sounds like you don't know what CSRs are.


In conclusion, I would say it depends on how you answer and fill in the blanks.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
We all know, or should know, that training does not equal competence. I've seen countless numbers of incompetent people who were trained. This being the case, the lack of training credentials in this case doesn't indicate that the OP (or anyone else) lacks competency in auditing. The burden of proof regarding competency or lack thereof falls on the CB auditor, not the auditee.
 

Mikey324

Quite Involved in Discussions
#8
CB auditors should not be requesting, or suggesting, that you receive "IATF training" classes. There is no requirement for this. The standard does say auditors shall be able to demonstrate competency, understanding ISO/IATF requirements related to the audit scope.

Nowhere does it say by taking IATF classes. Classroom training certificates just prove you were there. Not that you are competent. Training certificates and OJT are just one way to show competency.

I would say one the job experience, proven performance, and value added audits are even better proof you know what you are doing. Your organization has to have this documented process, taking into account the Organization and Customers requirements.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#9
a) understanding of the automotive process approach for auditing, including risk-based thinking;
b) understanding of applicable customer-specific requirements and
d) understanding of applicable core tool requirements related to the scope of the audit
Understanding does not mean Subject Matter Expert. I've a basic understanding of what synthesizing human DNA is and entails (I've audited it for years) but I'm nowhere near an expert and that goes for 100 other things that I've acquired understanding of.

When I look at auditor competence it goes way beyond them taking some dog & pony show, slide popping training course (I delivered over 200 of those so maybe I'm a SME of sorts) competency goes into the full audit process, planning, delivery, reporting, follow up, everything. If I see great output (without gobblety goop training, unless it's absolutely required), I say great job and it goes on paper as such. Honestly, I couldn't care less about certifications as well. I've an MBA (Finance).........I'm competent "Whopee", but you'd better not let me be your comptroller.

I'm not a TS guy so I could be out of line, however I am a CB auditor with about 100 audit days already this year, so understand without any TS to fall back on my auditor instinct say "BS" Bull.jpg
 

Mikey324

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
@Randy I've an MBA (Finance).........I'm competent "Whopee", but you'd better not let me be your comptroller.

I know what you mean. "On paper" and "in practice" are very different. I think if auditors (CB and internal) looked past the paper and into the practice, it would be a different world all around.
 
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