IATF Guidance to ISO/TS 16949:2002 - Not auditable?

#1
In the process of answering findings on my most recent surveillance audit, I am re-reading ISO/TS 16949:2002(E).
"IATF Guidance to ISO/TS16949:2002" is a document containing recommended automotive industry practices, examples, illustrations and explanations, and provides assistance in the application to conform to the requirements of this Technical Specification.
This IATF Guidance document is not intended for certification or for contractual purposes
(Emphasis in the original)
Does this mean that I can't get certified to the guidance?
OR
Does this mean that some auditor cannot write me a finding because I have covered the TS section but not every tidbit in the Guidance?

I can't put my finger on it right now but I am certain that I got a Preventive and predictive maintenance finding because I wasn't doing fluid analysis (guidance) even though there is no mention of it in the standard. I ended up writing a white paper on why I don't do fluid analysis (I don't have any hydraulic pumps, etc.) to answer the finding.
 
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#2
Icy Mountain:

1) Correct
2) Correct

Guidance documents are not auditable. It is a guidance.

A N/C should be written against a clause in TS 16949:2002.

On what grounds did the auditor write the N/C ?
 

Howard Atkins

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#3
In the process of answering findings on my most recent surveillance audit, I am re-reading ISO/TS 16949:2002(E).
Originally Posted by ISO/TS 16949:2002, Section 0.3.1 IATF Guidance to ISO/TS16949:2002

"IATF Guidance to ISO/TS16949:2002" is a document containing recommended automotive industry practices, examples, illustrations and explanations, and provides assistance in the application to conform to the requirements of this Technical Specification.
This IATF Guidance document is not intended for certification or for contractual purposes(Emphasis in the original)
Does this mean that I can't get certified to the guidance?
OR
Does this mean that some auditor cannot write me a finding because I have covered the TS section but not every tidbit in the Guidance?

I can't put my finger on it right now but I am certain that I got a Preventive and predictive maintenance finding because I wasn't doing fluid analysis (guidance) even though there is no mention of it in the standard. I ended up writing a white paper on why I don't do fluid analysis (I don't have any hydraulic pumps, etc.) to answer the finding.

The guidelines are NOT auditable as said
This IATF Guidance document is not intended for certification or for contractual purposes

Your specific point
Guidelines
Predictive maintenance methods should include a review of
appropriate items such as the manufacturer's recommendations,
storage, tool wear, optimization of uptime, correlation of SPC
data to.preventive maintenance activities, important
characteristics of perishable tooling, fluid analysis, monitoring of
circuits and vibration analysis as appropriate. (my emphasis)
Here we have a should, not shall and twice as appropriate. Even if this was verbatim in the standard there is no requirement to perform the actions
 
#4
On what grounds did the auditor write the N/C ?
That's what I can't put my finger on, certainly nothing recent, I'm much better at defending our system now. However, I have had many, many audits where the guidance comes out for more than just guidance; it's often used like a sanctioned interpretation. There is a reason that I have both the standard and guidance in the same binder with my single printed procedures manual. It was just one of those "eureka" moments.
 
V

vanputten

#5
It is my memory that the IATF Guidance document to TS 16949 was obsoleted even as a guidance document let alone a basis for registration.

Regards,

Dirk
 
#6
From memory, the guidance wasn't much use.

I do remember that there was nothing on document control - although history shows that this requirement is 80% of the reasons for external audit findings - so it'd be reasonable to expect some guidance, wouldn't it?:bonk:
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Leader
Admin
#7
although history shows that this requirement is 80% of the reasons for external audit findings - so it'd be reasonable to expect some guidance, wouldn't it?:bonk:
83.7% of statistics (including this one) are fabricated willy-nilly...If document control is still a source of a high percentage of findings in TS audits, it has much less to do with the requirements of the standard, and much more with auditor behavior that tends to focus on "tangible", auditable, "black&white" issues. Documentation control, quality records and other few issues still account for a large percentage of findings simply because auditors (in most cases) are afraid of tackling the real thorny issues such as management responsibility, competence assurance, monitoring of customer satisfaction, supplier performance, etc...
 

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
#8
83.7% of statistics (including this one) are fabricated willy-nilly...If document control is still a source of a high percentage of findings in TS audits, it has much less to do with the requirements of the standard, and much more with auditor behavior that tends to focus on "tangible", auditable, "black&white" issues. Documentation control, quality records and other few issues still account for a large percentage of findings simply because auditors (in most cases) are afraid of tackling the real thorny issues such as management responsibility, competence assurance, monitoring of customer satisfaction, supplier performance, etc...

Hello Sidney,

I guess the Pareto Principle applies.....
Documents/Records: The Trivial Many.
The "thorny issues" as you call them: the Vital Few.
 

Stijloor

Leader
Super Moderator
#9
It is my memory that the IATF Guidance document to TS 16949 was obsoleted even as a guidance document let alone a basis for registration.

Regards,

Dirk
Hello Dirk,

The "IATF Guidance to ISO/TS 16949:2002" document is still available.
It's the "Quality System Assessment Checklist" that was withdrawn.

Stijloor.
 
#10
Hello Dirk,

The "IATF Guidance to ISO/TS 16949:2002" document is still available.
It's the "Quality System Assessment Checklist" that was withdrawn.

Stijloor.
I think you're referring to the Implementation Guide which is different from the original IATF ISO/TS Guide. The one shown on the AIAG website is the AIAG's implementation guide. The IATF one was withdrawn..........Confusing, I know, but that's the situation.
 
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