IATF NC Interaction of process diagram - Missing contingency plan

#1
Hello, we just had our IATF audit and one of the NCs we were issued was for not having the Contingency plan call out on the interaction of the process diagram. I have been trying to understand why is the Contingency plan supposed to be part of the interaction of the process. Do you have any feedback/notes on this?

NC from auditor and objective evidence
Requirement: 4.4.1 The organization shall ... determine the processes needed for the quality management system and their application throughout the
organization
Statement of nonconforming:
The determination of the processes necessary for the quality management system and their application throughout the organization is not fully
effective.
Objective evidence: The contingency plan is not included in the “Interaction of process flow chart”
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Mikey324

Quite Involved in Discussions
#2
Good afternoon. I can see why you are struggling to find the requirement. It is because that isn't a requirement from ISO or IATF. That is what the auditor would like to see. I would like to see lots of things, doesn't mean any are required by the standard.

Do you have a system to demonstrate your processes and their interactions? Do you have a contingency plan? If the answer to those questions is yes, then where is the "shall" being violated.

We need way less of this kind of auditor interpretation treated like gospel. The standard provides some degree of freedom to allow different companies different ways to allow the standard to add value. All the "you have these things, but I want to see it here" findings do absolutely nothing of any value.
 
#3
Thank you Mike for your comments. Yes, we have an interaction of process diagrams, we have turtle diagrams, and a contingency plan in place as well. Yes, I also think is more something she wants instead of a real "Requirement".
 

Mikey324

Quite Involved in Discussions
#4
Thank you Mike for your comments. Yes, we have an interaction of process diagrams, we have turtle diagrams, and a contingency plan in place as well. Yes, I also think is more something she wants instead of a real "Requirement".
if you are meeting the requirements, it doesn’t matter what the auditor wants. This is a huge problem. Maybe they’ve seen it done that way somewhere, and they liked the idea of it. Still not a requirement. The standard says what you need to accomplish, leaving it up to the organization to determine the best way to do so.
 

Howard Atkins

Forum Administrator
Leader
Admin
#5
The question is whether it is a process
The definition of process in ISO9000 which is accepted by IATF is
3.4.1
process
set of interrelated or interacting activities that use inputs to deliver an intended result


By this definition the contingency plan is a control for other process
IATF states
6.1.2.3 Contingency plans
The organization shall:
identify and evaluate internal and external risks to all manufacturing processes and
infrastructure equipment essential to maintain production output and to ensure that
customer requirements are met;


This shows it is a control for other processes

Please feel free to use your CBs appeals process as you will not find a root cause!

NB the standard also states
The organization shall ... determine the processes needed for the quality management system

The auditor cannot tell you what to determine if your system works
 

John C. Abnet

Teacher, sensei, kennari
Leader
Super Moderator
#8
Yeah, stuff like this wastes everyone’s time. These types of findings probably play into why we see less companies going for certification lately. Better uses of your time than concocting a root cause and countermeasure for a nonexistent issue.
Agreed, although @DJulian certainly asks a valid question.

I also (I'm sure you/others do as well) realize that it's difficult to see and fully understand the situation without being directly involved with the audit/auditor. For these reasons, some benefit of doubt should be afforded the auditor.
However, based on what we do understand, I agree with your assumption that the AUDITOR is wasting @DJulian 's time by raising what seems to be a non-existent "issue".

Be well.
 

Mikey324

Quite Involved in Discussions
#9
Agreed, although @DJulian certainly asks a valid question.

I also (I'm sure you/others do as well) realize that it's difficult to see and fully understand the situation without being directly involved with the audit/auditor. For these reasons, some benefit of doubt should be afforded the auditor.
However, based on what we do understand, I agree with your assumption that the AUDITOR is wasting @DJulian 's time by raising what seems to be a non-existent "issue".

Be well.
The only reason I say this as strongly as I have is based on the OP's NC statement from the auditor. If this truly is the finding, word for word, the auditor is missing a critical point. The objective evidence was stated as "the contingency plan is not included in the “Interaction of process flow chart”. And nothing in the standard requires it to be. In my opinion, the reviewers at the CB should push back on this one. If not, I would question what the reviewers know about the requirements.
 
#10
Hello, we just had our IATF audit and one of the NCs we were issued was for not having the Contingency plan call out on the interaction of the process diagram. I have been trying to understand why is the Contingency plan supposed to be part of the interaction of the process. Do you have any feedback/notes on this?

NC from auditor and objective evidence
Requirement: 4.4.1 The organization shall ... determine the processes needed for the quality management system and their application throughout the
organization
Statement of nonconforming:
The determination of the processes necessary for the quality management system and their application throughout the organization is not fully
effective.
Objective evidence: The contingency plan is not included in the “Interaction of process flow chart”
A plan is a plan. It may point to process which are to be deployed, but it isn’t a process in and of itself. I despair of supposedly competent CB auditors who clearly have no clue about the subject matter of their audits. Reject the nc to the CB management.
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
D What are the IATF rules regarding doing internal audits remotely? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 1
D Preparing for IATF 16949 Letter of Conformance Stage 1 audit IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
D Is it required to have the operator initial their work in the IATF 16949:2016 standard? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
X IATF 16949 Section 3.2 Change of ownership IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 0
Q MSA requirements for IATF IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 12
Sidney Vianna Interesting Discussion Will the IAQG go the IATF way and bypass the Accreditation Bodies? AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 0
Sidney Vianna Tesla Lacks Major Automotive Quality Certifications such as IATF 16949 and ISO 9001 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 15
W Looking for IATF 16949 (and ISO 17025) QMS software Suggestions Quality Tools, Improvement and Analysis 8
Sidney Vianna IATF 16949 News IATF News - Top 10 IATF 16949 nonconformities and more..... IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
B Establishing topics for IATF internal audit processes Internal Auditing 9
B IATF 16949 clause 10.2 - requirements following a customer complaint. IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 9
C IATF 16949:2016 Major NC pertaining to 7.1.5.2.1 Calibration/verification records IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 15
R How many process maps are adequate for a company for IATF 16949? Process Maps, Process Mapping and Turtle Diagrams 17
A IATF Non-Conformance 5 Why IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
O IATF 16949 News Upcoming Changes to IATF 16949? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
D Is IATF certification required when customer doesn't require it? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 19
A Laboratory scope on the IATF IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
V IATF 16949 GM CSR 10.2.4 Error-proofing requirement IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
W Minor NC - IATF Rules 5th Edition Sanctioned Interpretations against 4.2 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
L Internal audits for IATF IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
L IATF and ISO9001 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 15
D IATF 16949 Clause 7.2.2 - On the job training IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
G IATF Remote Location audit timing IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
Sidney Vianna IATF 16949 News IATF Performance Complaint Management System (IATF CMS) within the IATF Database IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
malasuerte Resourcing for ISO and or IATF? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 0
G IATF 7.1.5.2.1 Calibration/verification records :Program/software verification IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
L IATF 16949 8.3 Exclusions Manufacturing and Related Processes 5
M IATF external audit NC closure IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
D IATF 16949 7.3.1 Awareness- Supplemental IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
W IATF 9.2.2.1 Internal Audit how to determine risk IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 12
Q IATF 16949 8.4.2.4 Supplier Monitoring IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
J Implementation, establishment and certification of IATF 16949. IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
D IATF mandatory KPI? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 15
xfngrs 3 year audit cycle IATF 16949 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 10
D IATF 16949 Process Map IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 19
Vader22 IATF 16949 extended manufacturing site help IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4
J PROBLEM SOLVING - IATF and GM CSR IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 0
D IATF 16949 Certification and Letter of Conformance expiry (Help!!!) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 8
D AS9100 VS IATF 16949 AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 4
Ashland78 Need IATF 16949 ISO Gap Analysis Excel File Internal Auditing 3
J Internal Audit Schedule IATF Internal Auditing 4
D IATF Requirements if remote plant has no interface with OEMs who are part of IATF? IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
G IATF NC - Contingency Planning IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
T Justification of "Design Excluded" in IATF 16949 Design and Development of Products and Processes 5
Sidney Vianna Job Opening in the USA - IATF 16949 Lead Auditor Position Job Openings, Consulting and Employment Opportunities 0
Ron Rompen IATF 16949 8.5.1.4 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 7
I Work Instruction Update- IATF Impact IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
P IATF 16949:2016 Letter of conformity IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 5
D IATF PROCESSES IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
D IATF 16949 SI 10, External non-accredited lab IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 4

Similar threads

Top Bottom