IATF Process Maps/Turtles

T

tamvic1

We are going to use Turtles for our IATF audit. Does anyone have examples of completed turtles that meet the new IATF requirements. I have templates but I am new to turtles. Thanks!
 

Lisa Jacobs

Lisa Marie
I've attached an example of one of our turtle/process maps and our interactions map, but please note the following:

We just received response from our desk audit that we need to modify to meet compliance. We have process maps and we have a separate document that defines the system interactions.

The auditor noted the following: "The process map does not include all of the requirements of the ISO-9001:2015 & IATF-16949-2016 requirements. Must be fixed before the audit." I'm currently at a loss for what I'm missing from the requirements when the process maps and system interactions are both taken into account.

He noted in a separate area that we do not have process owners and yet, we have a RACI defined on each turtle diagram. (RACI defined as: R: Responsible/Process Owner; A: Approver/Accountable person; C: Consult; I: Informed)

I'm left wondering if the auditor doesn't understand our system and is sending me on a wild goose chase or if I am missing the requirements and am just not seeing what he is talking about.

My attached documentation may be of use, however until I have resolution to the issue at hand, I wouldn't suggest replication. Any feedback is appreciated.
 

Attachments

  • APQP Turtle example.pdf
    92.9 KB · Views: 3,584
  • Appendix A Systemic Process Interaction Chart Rev2.pdf
    162.9 KB · Views: 2,778

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
I've attached an example of one of our turtle/process maps and our interactions map, but please note the following:

We just received response from our desk audit that we need to modify to meet compliance. We have process maps and we have a separate document that defines the system interactions.

The auditor noted the following: "The process map does not include all of the requirements of the ISO-9001:2015 & IATF-16949-2016 requirements. Must be fixed before the audit." I'm currently at a loss for what I'm missing from the requirements when the process maps and system interactions are both taken into account.

He noted in a separate area that we do not have process owners and yet, we have a RACI defined on each turtle diagram. (RACI defined as: R: Responsible/Process Owner; A: Approver/Accountable person; C: Consult; I: Informed)

I'm left wondering if the auditor doesn't understand our system and is sending me on a wild goose chase or if I am missing the requirements and am just not seeing what he is talking about.

My attached documentation may be of use, however until I have resolution to the issue at hand, I wouldn't suggest replication. Any feedback is appreciated.

Would be nice to know what you're "missing." Good luck with that guy.
 

AndyN

Moved On
The auditor noted the following: "The process map does not include all of the requirements of the ISO-9001:2015 & IATF-16949-2016 requirements. Must be fixed before the audit." I'm currently at a loss for what I'm missing from the requirements when the process maps and system interactions are both taken into account.

He noted in a separate area that we do not have process owners and yet, we have a RACI defined on each turtle diagram. (RACI defined as: R: Responsible/Process Owner; A: Approver/Accountable person; C: Consult; I: Informed)

Your auditor is using (their) opinion. That means it's not an objective, impartial audit. You should (immediately) contact your CB's Operations management and tell them you don't accept this auditors comments and they should put someone on the job who knows what they are doing!
 

lmamao

Involved In Discussions
There is no requirement for using the Turtle diagram, but it is a tool identify the inputs and the outputs of the processes and implement process approach and risk assessment. As for the requirements for each of the processes with a simple matrix of the processes against the clauses, this helps a lot in the preparation for the internal audit.
 

Lisa Jacobs

Lisa Marie
If there is no requirement for using a turtle diagram, how could I be missing something? We have a cross reference document at the end of our quality manual that shows the relationship between all 3 standards (ISO 9001, IATF and Environmental) to our system. Is this type of document satisfactory to the requirements in regards to the matrix or do you mean for example to actually link "section 4" of the standard to "a process"?
 

Golfman25

Trusted Information Resource
If there is no requirement for using a turtle diagram, how could I be missing something? We have a cross reference document at the end of our quality manual that shows the relationship between all 3 standards (ISO 9001, IATF and Environmental) to our system. Is this type of document satisfactory to the requirements in regards to the matrix or do you mean for example to actually link "section 4" of the standard to "a process"?

Ok so here's the thing. Process maps, turtles and the like are not required by the standard. But you have to show linkages and interactions. A few years ago the IATF essentially mandated a "process map" as part of the pre-audit planning. Before that we used to do a process diagram made up of turtles. Plus, flowcharts of all our procedures. We fought the battle and lost.

Now when your auditor says your "missing" something without pointing out what it is your missing, they are worthless.
 

lmamao

Involved In Discussions
I've attached a simple matrix so you have an idea what I'm talking about
 

Attachments

  • matrix.docx
    36.8 KB · Views: 2,152

AndyN

Moved On
If there is no requirement for using a turtle diagram, how could I be missing something? We have a cross reference document at the end of our quality manual that shows the relationship between all 3 standards (ISO 9001, IATF and Environmental) to our system. Is this type of document satisfactory to the requirements in regards to the matrix or do you mean for example to actually link "section 4" of the standard to "a process"?

IMHO - and not inconsiderable experience - turtles are almost a complete waste of time. They are, quite simply a half-hearted attempt to help ineffectual (CB) auditors try to audit process, not elements. As far as using them to define a QMS? I wouldn't put them at the top of my list.

As far as the (CB) auditors goes, they have fallen into the trap created by the use of turtles and can't now see how a QMS is defined and documented...
 
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Lisa Jacobs

Lisa Marie
Gotcha. We have this type of matrix under our internal audit program. See attached.
 

Attachments

  • 2017 Audit Schedule including process and clauses.xls
    495.5 KB · Views: 2,076
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