Definition IDENTIFY and DETERMINE - What is the technical difference between the words

S

samsung

#41
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

Just out of curiosity, if you agree that internal auditing is/was a requirement, but believe that prior to the 2008 version keeping records of internal audits was not a requirement, how (prior to the 2008 version) would you go about presenting objective evidence of having done internal audits and acted upon their results if there were no records?
Results of audit in the form of a summary/ statements of nonconformity and the results of actions taken in side-by-side columns is all that's sufficient to prove that an audit was conducted and actions taken. That's what ISO 9001:2000 version required us to do but the current version goes one step further by clearly stipulating:
Records of the audits and their results shall be maintained
However, the following requirement is common in both the standards.
A documented procedure shall be established to define the responsibilities and requirements for planning and conducting audits, establishing records and reporting results.
 
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howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#42
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

Samsung, did you maintain records of internal audits prior to the 2008 version? If so, why?
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#43
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

Results of audit in the form of a summary/ statements of nonconformity and the results of actions taken in side-by-side columns is all that's sufficient to prove that an audit was conducted and actions taken. That's what ISO 9001:2000 version required us to do but the current version goes one step further by clearly stipulating:
Records of the audits and their results shall be maintained
What you're describing (results of audit, and of actions taken) is a record of the audit(s). If you can demonstrate those things, you've kept a record. What do you do differently as a result of the 2008 change?
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#44
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

Results of audit in the form of a summary/ statements of nonconformity and the results of actions taken in side-by-side columns is all that's sufficient to prove that an audit was conducted and actions taken. That's what ISO 9001:2000 version required us to do but the current version goes one step further by clearly stipulating:


However, the following requirement is common in both the standards.
It sounds like you're making a distinction between records of the results of audits and records of the audit activities.

Although it wasn't the intent, if you read the exact wording of the 2000 version, records of conformity to all ISO 9001 requirements (including audits) had to be maintained.
ISO 9001:2000 clause 4.2.4 said:
Records shall be established and maintained to provide evidence of conformity to requirements and of the effective operation of the quality management system.
 
S

samsung

#45
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

Samsung, did you maintain records of internal audits prior to the 2008 version? If so, why?
Yes we did as part of our internal requirement in the same way as we maintained numerous other business records not mandated by ISO. But now, whether or not it's an internal requirement, we have to maintain the records as part of the system (9001) requirement.

Further, clause 4.2.4 requires records to provide evidence of conformity to requirements . Agreed, but there has to be a shall and in the case of audit records, it was silently introduced in 2008.

What you're describing (results of audit, and of actions taken) is a record of the audit(s). If you can demonstrate those things, you've kept a record. What do you do differently as a result of the 2008 change?
Although, the standard doesn't prescribe what sort of records one has to maintain yet it does differentiate between 'results' and 'records'. as evidenced from the new requirement added in 2008 version.
"Records of the audits and their results shall be maintained"
So the difference now is of all other associated records (those used to derive the 'audit results') which could be checklists, records of persons interviewed, objective evidence collected, Nonconfromance sheets in addition to audit plans & schedules, details of internal auditors etc. etc.

Now, just for the sake of discussion, let me ask 2 questions -

(1) What exactly is the phrase/ sentence in the 2000 version that makes record keeping mandatory and if one didn't maintain, how had it been considered a nonconformity? (please point to a valid reference to a requirement/ shall)

(2) How do you look at this requirement with reference to 14001 & OHSAS?
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#46
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

<snip>Now, just for the sake of discussion, let me ask 2 questions -

(1) What exactly is the phrase/ sentence in the 2000 version that makes record keeping mandatory and if one didn't maintain, how had it been considered a nonconformity? (please point to a valid reference to a requirement/ shall) <snip>
See my post #20.

Stijloor.
 
S

samsung

#47
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

See my post #20.

Stijloor.
Infact the complete text of what you mentioned in Post#20 reads as follows:

A documented procedure shall be established to define the responsibilities and requirements for planning and conducting audits, establishing records and reporting results.
The statement is crystal clear. What the standard mandated here is not the records but a documented procedure to define what records the organization will establish and how/ to whom the results will be reported.

Please note the term 'establishing the record' which in no way construed as 'maintaining the audit records'.

As I said, if organizations were still maintaining the audit records, it could be their organization's internal requirement/ customer or regulatory requirement etc. but I can't agree that it was an ISO 9001 requirement.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#48
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

Infact the complete text of what you mentioned in Post#20 reads as follows:

The statement is crystal clear. What the standard mandated here is not the records but a documented procedure to define what records the organization will establish and how/ to whom the results will be reported.

Please note the term 'establishing the record' which in no way construed as 'maintaining the audit records'.

As I said, if organizations were still maintaining the audit records, it could be their organization's internal requirement/ customer or regulatory requirement etc. but I can't agree that it was an ISO 9001 requirement.
I am not a lawyer, I have never found this to be an issue until you brought it up, so I rest my case.

Stijloor.
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#49
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

Now, just for the sake of discussion, let me ask 2 questions -

(1) What exactly is the phrase/ sentence in the 2000 version that makes record keeping mandatory and if one didn't maintain, how had it been considered a nonconformity? (please point to a valid reference to a requirement/ shall)
A valid reference doesn't necessarily require an explicit "shall." 8.2.2 of the 2000 version is enough, combined with these considerations:

  • As I suggested earlier, you have no way of informing management review of results of internal audits (an explicit "shall") without audit records.
  • You have no way to demonstrate the historical function of your internal audit system without audit records.
Because you obviously need records for these (among other) reasons, it also stands to reason that if you don't provide audit records for management review and if you aren't able to demonstrate to an auditor that your internal audit process is compliant, you will be in a state of nonconformity.

I have a feeling that this response, despite its direct explication of the issue, will not be enough. That's OK, because for TC176, who have assured us that there are no significant changes in the 2008 version, and the vast majority of users of the standard who have understood all along that records of internal audits have always been required, it's not an issue at all.
 

Chennaiite

Never-say-die
Trusted Information Resource
#50
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

I am not an expert of the subject, excuse me if I am wrong.

It seems even, 8.5.2 Corrective action doesn't require maintenance of records. Just a mention in the documented procedure seems to be good enough according to the *sentences* available in the Standard. And there can be so many such cases, if we start to dig word by word and neglect the implications.

Samsung, with due respects, I am sorry to say - it appears there is a over-complication.
 
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