Definition IDENTIFY and DETERMINE - What is the technical difference between the words

J

JaneB

#51
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

Fascinating.

I've never before seen anyone contend that there was no need to have/keep/maintain audit records in the 2000 version & earlier ones. And that the 2008 version 'introduced' this 'new' requirement, even despite all the official announcements and releases that there were no new requirements introduced at all. I guess there's always a first for everything.

How anyone can argue - and over so many posts and presumably with a straight face - that anyone could meet the requirements for auditing without having any records of same is quite beyond me.

Samsung, is there truly some ultimate point to this ultra-theoretical and ultra-fine dissection of hairs, or was it just a quiet day on the forum?
 
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Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#52
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

I'd just like to echo JaneB's comments. Having taken some time away from the cove I'm amazed to come back and find some threads really haven't moved on and we still get potentially interesting topics like 'identify' vs. 'determine' derailed by a debate about audit record retention requirements. FWIW my :2cents: on both subjects is as follows:
  • I'm with the massed ranks of the posters who are chipping away at samsung's determined (some might say stubborn :notme:) defence of the view that ISO 9001:2000 did not require audit records to be kept. I don't have my copy of the previous issue to hand (document control you see!) but whether clause 8.2.2 specifically required audit records or not the key clause here is 4.2.4. Excuse my editing but the two relevant requirements on the organization are:
    • Records established to provide evidence of conformity to requirements and of the effective operation of the quality management system shall be controlled.
    • The way the organization has to do this is by a documented procedure that defines how it controls '... identification, storage, protection, retrieval, retention and disposition of records.'
    So taking the two together if there is a requirement in the management system standard then the organization needs to keep records that show how it meets that requirement.
  • The whole intent of replacing 'identify' with 'determine' was so that people would put a bit more rigour into understanding their processes. Identify can be a list whereas determine (Good old Ask Oxford gives three definitions and the relevant one in this case is: ascertain or establish exactly by research or calculation
 
S

samsung

#53
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

[*]As I suggested earlier, you have no way of informing management review of results of internal audits (an explicit "shall") without audit records.
[*]You have no way to demonstrate the historical function of your internal audit system without audit records.[/LIST]
Requirement of records for the Mgmt. review or for historical reasons doesn't necessarily prove that the audits records were (indirectly) mandated by the 2000 version and that the 2008 version hasn't introduced any new requirement.

There are numerous things in an organization which cannot be accomplished & reviewed by the management without having up-to-date records in place, e.g., the entire maintenance of any manufacturing facility where hundreds of records are daily generated and for such organizations, it's one of the activities that the top management can't afford to ignore in it's periodic reviews. Similarly, resource management, work environment etc. are the processes generating lot of records without which it's impossible for the management to conduct an effective performance review (management review). This doesn't mean that 'records' are/were mandatory for all the above processes and nor does the standard prescribes so. If the audit records are so much necessary for the management review, how do organizations conduct EMS & OHS review?

Because you obviously need records for these (among other) reasons, it also stands to reason that if you don't provide audit records for management review and if you aren't able to demonstrate to an auditor that your internal audit process is compliant, you will be in a state of nonconformity.
I can't agree with this statement because what you have presented is altogether a different issue, i.e. "if you aren't able to demonstrate to an auditor......". This is somewhat related to the 'inability' or 'incapacity' of the auditee to defend himself without the existence of records. What if one is able to demonstrate through other means as one does in many other instances where records are explicitly not required?

That's OK, because for TC176, who have assured us that there are no significant changes in the 2008 version...
'Significance' is a relative term. Take the example of this particular instance. For the organizations who had been maintaining the audit records even before 2008 as part of their internal requirements, it wasn't a 'significant change' because they didn't have to do any differently after the 2008 version was released but for those who didn't, it certainly was a significant change in requirement.

and the vast majority of users of the standard who have understood all along that records of internal audits have always been required, it's not an issue at all.
No, the records have always not been required (it's yet not proved) although they were being maintained by many. As I already said, vast majority might had been doing it in order to meet their internal requirements and perhaps for this reason, the issue never cropped up.

But now ISO 9001:2008, while retaining all the previously stated requirements of the 2000 version, has introduced a new requirement for maintaining not only the results of audits but also the audit records.
 
S

samsung

#54
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

[*]Records established to provide evidence of conformity to requirements and of the effective operation of the quality management system shall be controlled.
[*]The way the organization has to do this is by a documented procedure that defines how it controls '... identification, storage, protection, retrieval, retention and disposition of records.'
Boris, believe me I have no confusion whatsoever with regard to 4.2.4. The records established, must be controlled. It was in 2000, it's in 2008. What we are discussing is just what was not in 2000 but existed in 2008.

Thanks.:cool:
 

Paul Simpson

Trusted Information Resource
#55
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

Boris, believe me I have no confusion whatsoever with regard to 4.2.4. The records established, must be controlled. It was in 2000, it's in 2008. What we are discussing is just what was not in 2000 but existed in 2008.

Thanks.:cool:
Samsung. You say you understand the requirements of 4.2.4 but all your other posts indicate otherwise. :confused:

There may be some clarification in the wording of the clause on internal audits but the requirement to maintain records existed long before the 2008 edition (from 4.2.4).

In your reply to Jim's post your argument seems to be going round the houses but a point I picked up on was to do with management review. The requirement for records of audits exists in both ISO 14001 and BS 18001 so again I don't understand where you are coming from. The management review input in the form of results of audits exists for all three standards as you wouldn't expect the senior guys / gals to be spending too much time reading all the records of audits. A summary of results is fine (perhaps with a bit of commentary from the MR.
 

howste

Thaumaturge
Super Moderator
#58
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

".........and I'm trying hard to find out something to prove that."
It's really a moot point since the 2008 standard has been published anyway. It's good enough for me that the writers of the standard said they didn't change requirements, and the way it reads now is the way I always interpreted it.

It seems that you're trying to nitpick the distinction between records of audits and records of the results of audits. You've interpreted the "results of audits" as nonconformities. I disagree. The standard says that the purpose of audits is to verify that (8.2.2a) the system conforms to planned arrangements and requirements and to verify that (8.2.2b) the system is effectively implemented and maintained. Therefore the results of audits must include not just nonconformities and actions taken to resolve them, but must also include evidence of conformity and evidence of effectiveness (and/or ineffectiveness).

Feel free to disagree. :bigwave:
 
S

samsung

#59
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

It seems that you're trying to nitpick the distinction between records of audits and records of the results of audits.
:notme:No Howste, I'm not making any distinction, the standard has done so and I don't know why? What I know is that 8.2.2 has an additional statement that anyone can interpret and clearly tell what it asks us to do. BTW, you didn't refer it anywhere in your posts in this thread.
 

Sidney Vianna

Post Responsibly
Staff member
Admin
#60
Re: What is the technical difference between the word "IDENTIFY" and "DETERMINE"?

I am so glad and thankful to the TC 176 for the remarkable job in clarifying the ISO 9001 requirements. So, we no longer have those situations, common pre-2008, when we needed a dozen experts trying to convince another one he was mistaken; many times to no avail. With the clarity provided, we no longer get confused, have dueling opinions and the organizations implementing the standard no longer need expert advice....
 
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