Identifying Design Responsibilities in a TS 16949 Registered Company

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p_tww

Design Responsibility

Hi, Guys,

question is how to identify the design responsibility for TS certified company.
situation is Auto OEM provide overall assembly drawings and sample product, (attention, there was no parts drawings) the company just measure the sample product for the parts inside, and they made tolerance design, OEM provide material/product function specification.

I agree tolerance design is quite important and it belonged to product design. in this situation, the company need tolerance design.
How to justify the design responsibility of the company in this situation???
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
p_tww said:
question is how to identify the design responsibility for TS certified company.

situation is Auto OEM provide overall assembly drawings and sample product, (attention, there was no parts drawings) the company just measure the sample product for the parts inside, and they made tolerance design, OEM provide material/product function specification.

I agree tolerance design is quite important and it belonged to product design. in this situation, the company need tolerance design. How to justify the design responsibility of the company in this situation???
If I understand your question correctly, your customer wants your organization to reverse engineer a product from a prototype sample. We are not told how the sample was derived in the first place (hacked together in a basement workshop or "borrowed" from a competitor), but the customer has additionally set parameters for fit tolerances so the product will fit with some non-disclosed mating product.

Actually, this situation frequently arises in the aviation and aerospace industry when a previously approved sole source supplier goes out of business and for whatever reason, engineering drawings and clues to manufacturing process are no longer available. Aircraft owners need or want replacement parts and so go to organizations who will reverse engineer the product.

The first place to begin is the Contract Review with the customer which spells out responsibilities and ultimate ownership of the engineering drawings and manufacturing process maps ultimately developed.

Thus said: In my opinion, the design responsibility should probably belong to your organization. The Contract may call for ultimate sale or transfer of design ownership to the customer, but your organization still is responsible for creating the design.

The tolerance factors outlined by the customer are immaterial to the discussion of design ownership - they are merely "customer requirements" (this is no different than the customer saying he "wants it painted blue.")

The justification is that your organization will have to create a design blueprint, specify materials, create a manufacturing process, establish methods of inspection, instruments to measure, Control Plans to assure manufacturing and inspection processes are working efficiently, and submit the finished product to the customer whose primary requirement is only that form and fit meet his criteria.

I'm not clear whose responsibility "function" falls under. We are led to presume the customer is satisfied with the function of the prototype sample and that the product produced by your organization will also function - this function and whose responsibility should be completely spelled out in the customer requirements in the contract.
 
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Tom W

I work at a commercial heat treater - we have no product design functions but we do have process design functions and are held to those requriements. Not entirely the same as what you have there but the design and development section only applies to the design and development aspect that you do.
 
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p_tww

Thus said: In my opinion, the design responsibility should probably belong to your organization. The Contract may call for ultimate sale or transfer of design ownership to the customer, but your organization still is responsible for creating the design.

The tolerance factors outlined by the customer are immaterial to the discussion of design ownership - they are merely "customer requirements" (this is no different than the customer saying he "wants it painted blue.")

The justification is that your organization will have to create a design blueprint, specify materials, create a manufacturing process, establish methods of inspection, instruments to measure, Control Plans to assure manufacturing and inspection processes are working efficiently, and submit the finished product to the customer whose primary requirement is only that form and fit meet his criteria.

I'm not clear whose responsibility "function" falls under. We are led to presume the customer is satisfied with the function of the prototype sample and that the product produced by your organization will also function - this function and whose responsibility should be completely spelled out in the customer requirements in the contract.[/QUOTE]

Thanks, Wes,

The client provided product drawings and a product,to creat final product, we should assembly related parts, but there was no parts drawings, we need seprate/cut off the product and measure related dimension/structure, then we had to do tolerance design. that's all we done for product design.
Whether we still should apply product design responsbility?

Certainly, we should be with process design responsibility in automotive industry.
 

bpritts

Involved - Posts
p_tww said:
...how to identify the design responsibility for TS certified company.
situation is Auto OEM provide overall assembly drawings and sample product, (attention, there was no parts drawings) the company just measure the sample product for the parts inside, and they made tolerance design, OEM provide material/product function specification.
I would agree that the company doing the reverse engineering is design responsible, even if only in a limited way. Establishing tolerances is a critical aspect of design.

Design inputs would include the assembly drawings and the samples.

Additionally you (the designing company) need engineering judgement to make sure that tolerances are correct to allow proper fit (and operation) of the product. There could be big differences in tolerances based on what the function of the product is (example: diameters, straightness, and roundness of a shaft will have different tolerances based on the load, speed of rotation, and noise requirements. )

Be careful -- these tolerance requirements have nothing to do with your process capability. You need to set the required design tolerance first, then select a process that is capable to that level. In the shaft example, you might use raw bar stock; turn on a lathe, or grind, depending on the application.

Even an "appearance" part - say a car fender-- will have requirements such as dent resistance, corrosion resistance, smoothness of surface, cleanliness (to allow painting), etc.

Then verification and validation will follow from these requirements.

Many of the problems with reverse engineering come from companies taking samples and using tolerances that reflect their preferred or cheap process, rather than reflecting what the product needs.

Best of luck.

Brad
 

Wes Bucey

Prophet of Profit
bpritts said:
I would agree that the company doing the reverse engineering is design responsible, even if only in a limited way. Establishing tolerances is a critical aspect of design..... Etc.
Yep, Brad, good comment! The problem with Discussion Forums is there's never enough time or space to spell out all the whereas and whereif factors.

Ultimately, I guess, we have to trust the reader has knowledge and experience to read between the lines if we hit the high points and start the thinking in the right direction. I'm glad you mentioned some of those details.
 
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Sam

p_tww said:
Hi, Guys,

question is how to identify the design responsibility for TS certified company.
situation is Auto OEM provide overall assembly drawings and sample product, (attention, there was no parts drawings) the company just measure the sample product for the parts inside, and they made tolerance design, OEM provide material/product function specification.

I agree tolerance design is quite important and it belonged to product design. in this situation, the company need tolerance design.
How to justify the design responsibility of the company in this situation???

It has been my experience in the automotive sector that an organization has "design responsibility" only if:
1- they have, in fact, designed the product,
2- used their drawing format,
3- approved thei own design.

In your case; if you have measured all of the components, applied your own tolerances and used your own drawing format with no customer intervention or approval, then yes you are design responsible.
Normally when a customer is design responsible the product will utilize the customer drawing format with approvals, however, for the inner workings of an item the customer can approve the design using your drawing.
In any event when the customer is the approving activity they become the design responsible party.
 
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dbzman

Tryig to understand

I'm in the same boat as the previous Heat treater. Our shop performs a service "Heat Treating" but I see us responsible for process design under TS in 7.3. We had to do this for QS also. It was addressed in different areas of QS (4,2.3.1, 4.2.3.2, .....) whre now it is combined under 7.3 with design (4.4 in QS).

The only sections we excluded in 7.3 were Design input and design output.

Mike W

:ko:
 
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Tom W

During our TS2 audit last week we were told that we over addressed the design and development section, being only responsible for manufacturing process design. We were "guided" to exclude 7.3.2 / 7.3.2.1 / 7.3.3 / 7.3.3.1 / 7.3.5 / 7.3.6 / 7.3.6.1 for our service we provide (Heat Treatment).
 
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p_tww

Tom W said:
During our TS2 audit last week we were told that we over addressed the design and development section, being only responsible for manufacturing process design. We were "guided" to exclude 7.3.2 / 7.3.2.1 / 7.3.3 / 7.3.3.1 / 7.3.5 / 7.3.6 / 7.3.6.1 for our service we provide (Heat Treatment).
Thanks all.

I would like to agree with Sam's comments. I agree tolerance is quite important for product design. But in my situation, I only did quite small activities against whole one design. If I was required to be applied for Design responsibility, that means I should pay 15% more money.

Hi, Tom,

I would not agree with the comments you got, you could not exclude 7.3.5,7.3.6. because they were important activities for process design also.
 
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