IMDS as an outstanding item on a 1411 worksheet

N

NewfieChick

#1
I'm wondering if anyone can give me a definitive answer....

Can IMDS acceptance/approval be listed on a 1411/recovery worksheet by a supplier in order to get interim or Saleable approval? I've had this discussion with many other PPAP coordinators, and all have differing opinions. Some say yes, it can be listed on the 1411 with a target completion date and the supplier has Saleable status to ship. Others tell me it is necessary to have IMDS approval as one of the minimum requirements to even get Saleable status.

I cannot find anything that tells me that IMDS approval is a must for bare Saleable status when statusing a part for a supplier. I know it is a definite must to get Full approval, but can it be listed as an outstanding item on the recovery worksheet?

Thanks,
S.
 
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#2
The one that can give a definitive answer is your GM SQE. I have not seen anything in writing about this.

He might approve the 1411, if you can prove that your part does not contain any restricted substances per GADSL.org requirements (GM subscribes to this).

I think that GM SQE would want some assurances that your part meets the restricted substance requirement before he agrees since it goes into a saleable vehicle.

MDS should be created as early as possible during the APQP process (use sample development report for example) Do not wait until parts for saleable are due.
 
M

mk_Guruprasad

#3
Could you brief us regarding the 1411 sheet which you are quoting. I understand that this is some sort of GM Quality issue.

This would help other Cove members to understand better.

Thanks once again
Bye
 
N

NewfieChick

#4
The 1411 I'm talking about is the recovery worksheet that my suppliers fill out for me when they are submitting their parts to be PPAPed (it isn't for GM, I wouldn't dream of submitting to GM without IMDS approval).

What I specifically mean is for the suppliers to my plant, who build the product we ship to GM. Our facility supplies a GM plant with the 1st & 2nd row seats for certain vehicles - an example could be the trim/material or seat cover: we have most of the necessary information (AAR, dimensionals, capabilty studies for KPCs, etc). But the IMDS has not yet been approved to the rev level for which they've submitted the PPAP package. The supplier has submitted the IMDS information and is waiting for the approval, but has not yet received it. Based on that, I would be inclined to give the supplier Saleable PPAP status with the pending IMDS approval noted on their 1411 recovery worksheet, and an expiration date of maybe 2-3 weeks later. There are other PPAP coordinators that will not give Saleable status with the IMDS outstanding. So what I'm asking is - Is there a rule set in stone stating that we cannot give our suppliers Saleable PPAP status if the IMDS approval is pending?
 

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#6
Do you have a sample you could post?
See the attachment. I scanned it from the 3rd Edition PPAP manual, so it's most likely obsolete, but it's probably not much different from what's in use today.

The idea, for those unfamiliar with GM requirements, is that the 1411 form is to be used when seeking interim PPAP approval. In other words, the supplier (or customer) wants to ship parts but full approval isn't possible due to nonconforming conditions, use of something other than the intended production process, etc.
 

Attachments

Jim Wynne

Staff member
Admin
#7
I'm wondering if anyone can give me a definitive answer....

Can IMDS acceptance/approval be listed on a 1411/recovery worksheet by a supplier in order to get interim or Saleable approval? I've had this discussion with many other PPAP coordinators, and all have differing opinions. Some say yes, it can be listed on the 1411 with a target completion date and the supplier has Saleable status to ship. Others tell me it is necessary to have IMDS approval as one of the minimum requirements to even get Saleable status.

I cannot find anything that tells me that IMDS approval is a must for bare Saleable status when statusing a part for a supplier. I know it is a definite must to get Full approval, but can it be listed as an outstanding item on the recovery worksheet?

Thanks,
S.
It all depends on what your customerrequires. Will they accept product that isn't IMDS-qualified? If you're banking on your supplier getting his material into IMDS before you have to PPAP to your customer, it might be quite a risk.
 
N

NewfieChick

#8
I completely understand what you mean by saying if we wouldn't submit to GM without IMDS, why wouldn't I allow the same rule for my own suppliers....

However, there tends to be a lot of pressure from "higher ups" when it comes to giving status to a supplier, especially if it means our supplier cannot ship us our parts and we are in a stop-shipment crisis. At least with Saleable status, and the acknowledgement that the IMDS has been submitted and is waiting for approval, our supplier can ship parts to us, and we won't be in a position to possibly shut down our customer. I know this is walking a very thin line, but as I've learned in my short time as the PPAP person here - there are shades of grey in this job.

'm just wondering if there is an actual written rule or clause, or something, somewhere, that spells out that IMDS is NEVER to be included on a 1411, and MUST have approval/acceptance to give Saleable status at the very least. As you can probably tell from the slant of my messages, I have given Saleable shipping status to a supplier with IMDS pending on their 1411. If this is completely against the rules, and there is a written rule out there to show me that - then I will no longer do it. As a normal practice, I don't as my suppliers rarely submit without IMDS approval. However, my concern is for those sticky times, those grey areas I mentioned above, when my hand is being forced. I need to know that I can CMA (cover my a...)

Thx again!
 

bobdoering

Stop X-bar/R Madness!!
Trusted Information Resource
#9
I completely understand what you mean by saying if we wouldn't submit to GM without IMDS, why wouldn't I allow the same rule for my own suppliers....

However, there tends to be a lot of pressure from "higher ups" when it comes to giving status to a supplier, especially if it means our supplier cannot ship us our parts and we are in a stop-shipment crisis. At least with Saleable status, and the acknowledgment that the IMDS has been submitted and is waiting for approval, our supplier can ship parts to us, and we won't be in a position to possibly shut down our customer. I know this is walking a very thin line, but as I've learned in my short time as the PPAP person here - there are shades of grey in this job.

I'm just wondering if there is an actual written rule or clause, or something, somewhere, that spells out that IMDS is NEVER to be included on a 1411, and MUST have approval/acceptance to give Saleable status at the very least.

However, my concern is for those sticky times, those grey areas I mentioned above, when my hand is being forced. I need to know that I can CMA (cover my a...)

Thx again!
To answer your in initial question: I know of no written rule, but it really goes to the SQE's interpretation anyway. If they had a preference, it would be send a full PPAP and never use 1411. But, that said, 1411 approval is dependent on your SQE's tolerance for risk. Shades of grey. Sometimes using a 1411 will go against your quality rating as a late PPAP. Still not a good thing.

The real issue is to get up front with the IMDS process so that it is not a last minute issue. From your supplier approval process, does it determine that your supplier is IMDS capable? If not, does your supplier development process help them become capable, such as setting up an account and training them in IMDS entry - prior to approving them? Then, as a contract requirement (as in the purchase order!), they are to submit their product to IMDS, and their PPAP to you should have the IMDS number on the warrant. Of all of the PPAP requirements, this is practically the easiest, if NOT done the day the PPAP is being put together! People wait until the last minute because they do not want to do it - causing unneeded delay. They have to do it - so just do it, in a timely manner. Their suppliers should be doing it too. All of this is the responsibility of the "higher ups". They need to get their act together with their PPAP and purchasing process and not dump the problem on you. :cool:
 
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