IMO our people don't need to read manuals or procedures and document changes to them

V

ValleyGirl

#11
Re: Our people don't need to read manuals or procedures and document changes to them

Valley Girl,

You are talking AS9100, so I safely can assume you are an Aerospace company.

Do you have any procedures for record keeping, Material issue, Calibration, and document control? (Just to name a few). Or are all of your office personnel are highly knowledgeable also, and know exactly what to do?!
We have procedures for all that stuff now, so the Auditor can audit us. We know what we are doing...WE WROTE THE PROCEDURE!! and it will sit on the shelf until our next audit..OH unless we have to do something a little differently...then we get to revise the procedure. OH GREAT!


I am not talking about a CNC machinist, a tool and die maker, or a laser programmer. These trades can not be learned from a procedure. !
YOUR RIGHT...
But a new Documet control guy can read your company procedure for document control, and can function the next day. !
Were too smalll we don't have a document control guy...well I mean that's me...along with my other responsiblities.
What if your tool calibration guy dies tomorrow? How does the next guy you hire know what needs to be calibrated, what intervals, what spec and how? !
The QC guy keeps track of it. I also know the schedule and system along with the Shop Super, President of company...We're not a large company...but were good.
"I don't care what kind of parts you make, and how good the parts are. I wouldn't place an order with such a company, who does not make a risk assessment, and relies heavily on certain employee knowledge. "!
That's fine. A lot of Aerospace types will agree with you. Risk assesment - what's that?? You mean when the material specified by our customer doesn't machine as they expected. We call them so we can figure out what steps need to be taken to correct or rethink what was specified by our customer. We do proto type work so it happens sometimes..It's the first time it's been made. We rely on every employee - together we make a whole.

This is exactly like saying you have the best production machine in the world, but you only have one machine, and no backup program. I would never risk my parts and production line on your one machine.
No production line here Bub, were highly skilled Toolmakers in a job shop.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor

Randy

Super Moderator
#12
Re: Our people don't need to read manuals or procedures and document changes to them

You don't seem to get the point. There is no way a person can walk into our shop, read something and then procede to do the job. It just won't happen. Our people need and have years of experience, either they bring with them or learn slowly by working with our company. We employ intellegent people , that can talk to each other, get ideas across and procede with work. Taking time to document this or revise that gets in the way of doing the actual work. I'm not complaining - it's the reason I have a job here.
When this company was formed 25 years ago, you didn't have to deal with the AS9100 stuff. The focus was on the product, not the procedure....and beleive me there were PLENTY of people coming to us to have their work done. We employ people who truely care about their work. The sad part is there is not many people out there that do the same.
You mean to say that nobody else can read a spec or blue-print and use the folowing equiment and make something? That's a mighty bold ststement...

Equipment Listings

MILLING

(4) Conventional knee mills 9x42 table

(1) Fadal 3016 VMC 30x16 table, New 2002

(1) Fadal 4020 VMC, New 2003

(1) Fadal 4020 VMC, New 2006

TURNING

(1) Romi 16-8 lathe 16" Swing

(1) Nardini 14-40 conventional lathe 14" swing

(1) Hyundai CNC 8 station turret turning center

11" center swing 24" between centers NEW1998

GRINDING

(1) AMW automatic surface grinder 12x24 magnet

(4) Harig 612 surface grinders 6x12 magnet

* have a wide variety of grinding attachments to accommodate all grinding jobs

HEAT TREAT

(2) Cress ovens 12x12x20 chamber

EDM

(1) Charmilles E110 diesinker EDM
with isocut tank 8x14x20

(1) Soddick AQ327L Wire EDM New 2005
xyz travel 15"x11"x10"
with isocut tank 8x14x20

WELDING

(1) Lincoln Square Wave tig welder
(1) ESAB Mig Welder

SOFTWARE

Cadkey version 20 3D solid model
design can import or export IGES,
DXF,DWG,PDF,DSN,Pro/engineer,
solid edge, solid works,SAT,CADL files

Surfcam 2005 cam software for machines
3-D maching capacity
Autocad 2004


Recognize the list?

Many years ago and without the aid of computers and such we used to turn camshafts from blank billets to ready-to-race. The ancient Egyptians fit 20 ton stones so tight a piece of paper couldn't be placed between them. Machining ain't that complicated.

You'll find some stuff going on in machine shops that would give you the blind staggers....try a NASCAR Team shop and you'll see what I mean.........or a shop that manufactures components for space vehicles.

Oh yeah, from the perspective of an auditor (me) just because you wrote the procedure doesn't mean you know what you're doing, I see that statement disproved all the time....you're going at this all wrong and it seems to be reflected in your posts.

The "Standard" isn't meant to hamper you or get in your way, it's nothing more than a tool or mechanism to help you "manage" achieving customer satisfaction and to improve upon what it is you do. Like any tool there is a right way and wrong way to use it.....I'm a mechanic and I've been a machinist of sorts.

Quit using the Standard as a hammer and start using it as a lever.
 
S

Sorin

#13
Re: Our people don't need to read manuals or procedures and document changes to them

Heh...not to offend anyone...just a few things that passed through my neurones while reading this thread.

1.Seems there is no internal audit in that company.

2.Seems that there are no metrics either. And I am 100% sure that you don't have customer complaints or rejects or CA or NC.

3.People like you (ValleyGirl) gives quality a bad name. No offense intended but this is my opinion.

On the side of knowing all by heart and there is no need of procedures: worked (a few years ago) with a setup-man that knew all the set-ups by heart, never looked at a drawing.

First mistake: we had a change in design due to a customer request. Just so you know every change in design was communicated at all levels. So he knew when the change was made. But...c/c he did not look at the drawing when he had to do the set-up.
Result: 4500$ scrap.
2nd mistake: He was absent (vacation). On of the parts that was exclusively his domain was made (set-up) by another setup-man. To the drawing. Surprise: the part was not good,. And it was to the drawing. He did some adjustments without telling. And everytime he did the set-up with his adjustments without informing anyone.

I do understand that you are very proud of the company you are working for (if you are not a troll looking for trouble - I have this feeling and I apologize if I am wrong) but it will take a grain of sand (some of them were mentioned inthis thread) and all your work will fall like a giant with mudfeet.

Once again I apologize if someone felt offended by my post. It was not my intention.
 
S

Sorin

#14
Re: Our people don't need to read manuals or procedures and document changes to them

I think the only purpose that we have Quality Standards like AS9100B is so people that don't know how/what we do can come read a manual/procedure that you don't need and then criticize us for doing it wrong.
You can replace As with any quality standard and you will have the same effect (IYO).
What I don't get is why one will take the time to make a procedure if it will not be followed?
 
V

ValleyGirl

#15
Re: Our people don't need to read manuals or procedures and document changes to them

You mean to say that nobody else can read a spec or blue-print and use the folowing equiment and make something? That's a mighty bold ststement....
I'm not and did NOT say that. We build from our customers blueprint...using company machinery. They do not need to read a procedure...or the machine's owners manual :lol: I'm kidding about the owners manual.

Many years ago and without the aid of computers and such we used to turn camshafts from blank billets to ready-to-race. The ancient Egyptians fit 20 ton stones so tight a piece of paper couldn't be placed between them. Machining ain't that complicated..
I'm not saying machining is complicated either...especially for guys who have done it for years. But I am saying that knowing our comapny policy does not help them one little bit. And to make a point the Egyptians didn't have written procedures.

You'll find some stuff going on in machine shops that would give you the blind staggers....try a NASCAR Team shop and you'll see what I mean.........or a shop that manufactures components for space vehicles..
Space vehicles...your getting close.

Oh yeah, from the perspective of an auditor (me) just because you wrote the procedure doesn't mean you know what you're doing, .
Exactally!! The procedure is squat...

The "Standard" isn't meant to hamper you or get in your way, it's nothing more than a tool or mechanism to help you "manage" achieving customer satisfaction and to improve upon what it is you do. .
Customer satisfaction can defiantely be achived without a Written Standard.

I'm a mechanic and I've been a machinist of sorts..
Please don't use machanic and machinist in the same sentence.

Quit using the Standard as a hammer and start using it as a lever.
I originally posted this in another forum to "debate" why there is a standard . It got moved here. I feel the standard is in place to help those who do not know how..fake it.
 

Stijloor

Staff member
Super Moderator
#16
Re: Our people don't need to read manuals or procedures and document changes to them

Friends,

Purpose of documentation?

Preservation of knowledge!

The only organizational asset that can not be purchased and is not for sale.

Stijloor.
 

John Broomfield

Staff member
Super Moderator
#17
Re: Our people don't need to read manuals or procedures and document changes to them

AS9100 (clause 4.2.1d) requires you to document your system to the extent necessary for effective planning, operation and control. So, why have you created so much documentation beyond the policy, objectives, slim manual (to describe your system) and the one page documented procedures for each of the six orphan processes?

If the document adds no value do not create it. Going through the motions to second-guess what an auditor wants to see is a complete waste of time.

Conversely, you could analyze your company's core process (from end to end or needs to cash) to determine and document what your company does to add value. This will identify most of the key processes in your system. Each of these is worthy of analysis with the process owner to determine what the process team does to fulfill the objectives of their process. Link the resulting one page deployment flowchart to the few essential "how to" work instructions and the few forms used to collect data.

Pilots read their manuals so do surgeons. Even if you and your colleagues do not need to read their procedure to see how their process works then at least recognize the value of the system being documented so you and your colleagues can record what needs to be improved, identify (and permantently remove) the root causes of persistent expensive problems and redesign processes so your system can be used to add value faster and prevent loss sooner.

Thanks for firing us up!:)
 

Jen Kirley

Quality and Auditing Expert
Staff member
Admin
#18
Re: Our people don't need to read manuals or procedures and document changes to them

Blueprints are one type of specification. Procedures are another.

I don't open up my audit procedure to do an audit. However, it gives guidelines for people who aren't experts in it (like me before I was there for long - practices and rules vary from one company to the next and procedures set the rules).

A document control procedure similarly sets the rules and process framework. I get the feeling your procedures are not written in a helpful way.

Skilled machinists shouldn't need a procedure to do machine work. However, certain requirements need to be published. No getting around that.

There are lots of people arguing that ISO, etc is a self generating business. Whatever...but if you don't like it, you can leave the business and open a burger franchise...wait, they have procedures too! Why? to help make sure the right thing is cnsistently done. That's it, no ulterior motive or conspiracy theory to it.
 
V

ValleyGirl

#19
Re: Our people don't need to read manuals or procedures and document changes to them

AS9100 (clause 4.2.1d) requires you to document your system to the extent necessary for effective planning, operation and control. So, why have you created so much documentation beyond the policy, objectives, slim manual (to describe your system) and the one page documented procedures for each of the six orphan processes?

If the document adds no value do not create it. Going through the motions to second-guess what an auditor wants to see is a complete waste of time.

Conversely, you could analyze your company's core process (from end to end or needs to cash) to determine and document what your company does to add value. This will identify most of the key processes in your system. Each of these is worthy of analysis with the process owner to determine what the process team does to fulfill the objectives of their process. Link the resulting one page deployment flowchart to the few essential "how to" work instructions and the few forms used to collect data.

Pilots read their manuals so do surgeons. Even if you and your colleagues do not need to read their procedure to see how their process works then at least recognize the value of the system being documented so you and your colleagues can record what needs to be improved, identify (and permantently remove) the root causes of persistent expensive problems and redesign processes so your system can be used to add value faster and prevent loss sooner.

Thanks for firing us up!:)
Thank you so much for your informational reply. I definately appreciate what you have to say here. I can't tell you how many times during the registration audit I was asked by the auditor. "Where does it say that in your procedure/manual?" and prior to that, 10 years of auditing by ISO9001 auditors that lead us to create a lot of procedures that really aren't needed...but hey how can you disagree with what an auditor wants to see? I have the answer you, you have to KNOW the standard and be able to challange the auditor when asked for things that you don't think are necessary. It takes awhile to get there.:mad:

It's Saturday and I'm feeling happy
 
V

ValleyGirl

#20
Re: Our people don't need to read manuals or procedures and document changes to them

Skilled machinists shouldn't need a procedure to do machine work. However, certain requirements need to be published. No getting around that.

There are lots of people arguing that ISO, etc is a self generating business. Whatever...but if you don't like it, you can leave the business and open a burger franchise...wait, they have procedures too! Why? to help make sure the right thing is cnsistently done. That's it, no ulterior motive or conspiracy theory to it.
I apprecaite your reply Jennifer. My post were written on a Friday...yo know how things get during the weeK? Bur anyway, I love my job and the company I work for. My dad started the business 25 years ago and it has serverd us quite well. Sometimes I do have to sit back and dream of the good ol' days again.

We have everything in place...and are moving forward...but I must admit it's onluy because the OEM's are requiring it :D
 
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
J WAIVED ON Q1 - We Don't have to comply with FORDS customer specific requirements IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 2
S Records - Do's and don't' of record entries (FDA - 21 CFR 820) Records and Data - Quality, Legal and Other Evidence 13
F What to do when you don't meet the 1:10 ratio Measurement Uncertainty (MU) 3
MDD_QNA Accessory or I-don't-know-what-to-call-it-at-this-point EU Medical Device Regulations 3
S ARMY AQL - Requirements which don't have an AQL associated with them Manufacturing and Related Processes 2
D First 510(k) Submission - Don't Forget Tips US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 5
M IATF 16949:2016 clause 8.4.2.3 - We don't have ISO 9001:2015 certificate IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 26
I "We don't have enough resources" as an Audit Non-conformance Response General Auditing Discussions 14
D PPAP a Rebranded Purchased Product (we don't manufacture) IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 6
I Importing prototype without CE (dos and don'ts ) EU Medical Device Regulations 11
H Embedded Software - I don't understand that Calibration and Metrology Software and Hardware 2
N How to ensure our employees don’t grab and use the wrong materials Manufacturing and Related Processes 11
J We don't have enough Corrective action entries AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 10
L Nonconformity's risk is too low, so don't report it? General Auditing Discussions 25
K RAPS RAC - Resources to prep for the RAC exam that don't cost an arm and a leg Professional Certifications and Degrees 3
M A non-religious country, where you don't drink? Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 14
Jim Wynne Don't Pay the Ransom Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 11
AnaMariaVR2 Warning ? Don?t Confuse ?Made In USA? And ?Inspected By FDA? With Patriotism US Food and Drug Administration (FDA) 3
AnaMariaVR2 DIY Fixes Don't Meet CGMP: FDA Slams Manufacturer for Fixes Involving Tape, Rubber Ba Pharmaceuticals (21 CFR Part 210, 21 CFR Part 211 and related Regulations) 0
Stijloor American airports don't rank very well. Travel - Hotels, Motels, Planes and Trains 13
S Don't Forget Canadian Provincial Electrical Code Requirements Canada Medical Device Regulations 1
R EU-countries which don't accept English user manuals and require national translation CE Marking (Conformité Européene) / CB Scheme 9
B You don't need to know the distribution in order to apply SPC Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 10
B Why don't we have more representation from Registrars at The Cove? Registrars and Notified Bodies 14
1 I don?t have any experience with ISO 9001 - Help Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 9
Wes Bucey Passing on slick roads - DON'T! Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 6
BradM The Great Soul Train Conductor Don Cornelius-Dead World News 4
G ISO 17025 - Don't think we need a Sampling Plan... Or do we? ISO 17025 related Discussions 3
H ISO 9001 Section 7 when you don't manufacture anything? Service Industry Specific Topics 6
S Some departments don't have Quality Objectives - Non Conformity? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 68
A "Do's" and "Don'ts" of auditing a former employer General Auditing Discussions 12
Wes Bucey Job recovery? or "statistics don't lie, people do" Career and Occupation Discussions 37
C Old QMS... NEW QM.. I don't know where to start Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 57
Wes Bucey "Making the case" & Networking - Do's & Don't's Career and Occupation Discussions 2
M How do I prove I don't receive a controlled product? Ractopamine Hydrochloride Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 4
S ISO 9001 prohibits auditors auditing their 'own work' while other standards don't? Internal Auditing 59
M Suggestion System - Do's & Don'ts as well as Rewards System Manufacturing and Related Processes 29
BradM Just pretend you don't know about computers Funny Stuff - Jokes and Humour 1
R Definition Basic Dimensions - What are basic dimensions? Why don't they have tolerances? Definitions, Acronyms, Abbreviations and Interpretations Listed Alphabetically 14
J Control of Product Drawings - Engineers don't follow the same protocol ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 21
S Normal distribution - I have a series of data but I don?t know the distribution Statistical Analysis Tools, Techniques and SPC 24
Z Don't quite understand interpretation of ISO17025: 2005 clause 1.4 and 1.2 ISO 17025 related Discussions 13
Wes Bucey It's Friday - don't stop the job hunt! Career and Occupation Discussions 2
Wes Bucey Don't be a victim - High-level executive jobs Career and Occupation Discussions 2
ScottK The Management Representative cares about the QMS so you don't have to Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 37
V Can I apply for AS9100 Straight Away? (We don't have any ISO certificates) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
P The reason why Small-to Medium sized Enterprises (SMEs) don't use Six Sigma Six Sigma 19
S Granite Surface Plates - Maintenance, DOs and DON'Ts Manufacturing and Related Processes 9
H How do I answer an audit finding I don?t agree with? Nonconformance and Corrective Action 17
V IQA Audit Nonconformance - Documented requirements don't reflect current practice ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8

Similar threads

Top Bottom