IMS (AS9100/ISO14001) 3rd party audits

[schaeen]

What is your experience with CB audits of integrated management systems where the management system is made up of "different frameworks"? I just got out of a meeting with reps from our CB who said that we cannot integrate ISO14001 requirements into our current AS9100D conforming management system because they are incongruent frameworks (their words). Even though the standards share the same HLS, apparently CBs won't perform integrated audits against ISO and AS standards. Well, I've already re-written our high level documents integrating the standards' requirements and would prefer not to rewrite and establish and entire new system. So, my questions is: what has your experience been with 3rd party audits where your management system has integrated requirements from "different frameworks"? Do the auditors give you such a hard time that separate systems would be preferable?

 

[Sidney Vianna]

Your CB rep is either lying or ignorant. Have a look at the IAQG SCMH 7.12.3 section that discusses Integrated Management Systems IMS. Have a look also at the IAQG Resolution 155 (see below) . The IAQG recognizes the existence and benefits of IMS’s but some CB’s are not up to date with what is happening in the business world.

 

[Randy]

You're CB is so full of it they should be selling toilets........I'm doing an audit exactly this week at a place that has the following certificates and only 1, repeat manual and set of documents for ISO 9001, ISO 14001, ISO 45001, ISO 17025, ISO 17034 & ISO 27001. They have 1 audit program, 1 document/records control process, 1 management review and so on.

One of the easiest things in the world would be AS9100 & ISO 14001.......How would I know? I've seen it. I helped set it up by delivering the training to do so many years ago, and it wasn't some small mom & pop, it is a monster aerospace company whose products have been in the news recently serving their intended purpose.

I'm not promoting any specific CB, but I know the one Sidney has been associated with does it as does the one I've been associated with. Someone is trying to pass horse dung as roses.

 

[Big Jim]

I have written a few manuals for combined systems. One of the clients that had me write the manual specifically said hat they were going to have one quality system, one manual, and one set of documents and "auditors be damned". Their quality management system worked MUCH better once they combined them.

 

[schaeen]

You're CB is so full of it they should be selling toilets........I'm doing an audit exactly this week at a place that has the following certificates and only 1, repeat manual and set of documents for ISO 9001, ISO 14001, ISO 45001, ISO 17025, ISO 17034 & ISO 27001. They have 1 audit program, 1 document/records control process, 1 management review and so on.

Those are all ISO. I wouldn't have a dilemma if I was integrating requirements from only ISO standards. Our situation is different: AS9100 and ISO14001. And I realize integrating the requirements into one management system makes sense from a management perspective; however, my concern is the 3rd party auditor giving me hell for having to wade through extraneous materials to find conformances to one or the other standard. She already gives me REDACTED for including financial and document control stats in our management review.

 

[Dkern]

Those are all ISO. I wouldn't have a dilemma if I was integrating requirements from only ISO standards. Our situation is different: AS9100 and ISO14001.

We have ISO 9001, AS9100, and ISO 13485 integrated. I don't see the problem you seem to have here? They are all based off of ISO, period. If your CB has a problem you might want to think about changing imo.

 

[Randy]

And I realize integrating the requirements into one management system makes sense from a management perspective; however, my concern is the 3rd party auditor giving me hell for having to wade through extraneous materials to find conformances to one or the other standard. She already gives me REDACTED for including financial and document control stats in our management review.

You are no different than 500 organizations that have integrated that stuff, didn't you read what I posted? This week I'm auditing 3 standards at a multinational organization that is certified to 7 different standards, no redaction, no deletions (1 as an annual and 2 as recertifications), it ain't that big a deal. Screw what your auditor "likes" or even worrying about it! If your auditor starts in with "I like this, or I like that" stop the audit and "BOOT HIS BUTT OUT!!!!" It isn't about "like or dislike" and you're not paying maybe $2000 a day for sensitive feelings or his stinking "values".

When you start thinking you're different, ISO speaking, you're on the downhill slide, I've seen it a hundred times.

 

[schaeen]

We have ISO 9001, AS9100, and ISO 13485 integrated. I don't see the problem you seem to have here? They are all based off of ISO, period. If your CB has a problem you might want to think about changing imo.

Yeah, we're thinking the same thing. This and scheduling issues. I think we should have replaced them last year but upper management is reluctant to switch CBs after 15 years of contracting their services.

 

[schaeen]

I'm not promoting any specific CB, but I know the one Sidney has been associated with does it as does the one I've been associated with. Someone is trying to pass horse dung as roses.

I took your advice and contacted another CB. They also did not recognize integrated management systems of AS and ISO standards. For a visual, I've copied a section from their ISO 14001 request for quote form:

AS9100 is not an integration option.

(Their form is not well made so I'm taking the liberty of selecting neither option and inserting "[X] YES - not for the following standards:")

The conclusion I've come to, based on Sidney's IAQG quote, that CBs must audit integrated management systems separated by standard ("separate reporting", separate certificates). From their perspective, the standards are not - cannot be - integrated. I've only talked to salespeople - I would hope that actual auditors at either CB could navigate our integrated management system appropriately.

 

[Randy]

I took your advice and contacted another CB. They also did not recognize integrated management systems of AS and ISO standards. For a visual, I've copied a section from their ISO 14001 request for quote form:
View attachment 31219
AS9100 is not an integration option.

(Their form is not well made so I'm taking the liberty of selecting neither option and inserting "[X] YES - not for the following standards:")

The conclusion I've come to, based on Sidney's IAQG quote, that CBs must audit integrated management systems separated by standard ("separate reporting", separate certificates). From their perspective, the standards are not - cannot be - integrated. I've only talked to salespeople - I would hope that actual auditors at either CB could navigate our integrated management system appropriately.

I don't think the aerospace group allows integration of the audits.

Here's the deal, internally I believe you can integrate your documentation/procedures, some records, and all that, but the certification process can't be.

You best bet here is probably Sidney, I'm mainly an ISO guy. (I was able to verify my parents marriage for more than nine months before my birth so that's why I don't do aerospace (even though I've been an A&P since 1990) or automotive... couldn't be an officer or military pilot either)