Including competitors' information in a documentation system

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#1
What are your thoughts on controlling competitors' documents?

Say you get your hands on some drawings or test standards or the like...

I say "No". They are not our documents. Even if they are controlled as third party documents they do not belong in the document system. Particularly if they have a legal disclaimer about unauthorized distribution, etc.

As an auditor what would you do if you spotted this?
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
#2
Dang, Scott! - this sounds like the Formula 1 race team scandal from last year, when McLaren Cars got their hands on some Ferrari drawings........:mg:

Run away................:notme:
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#3
Dang, Scott! - this sounds like the Formula 1 race team scandal from last year, when McLaren Cars got their hands on some Ferrari drawings........:mg:

Run away................:notme:

I wonder if Bill Belichick put the Jets' plays into his document control system?
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#4
What are your thoughts on controlling competitors' documents?

Say you get your hands on some drawings or test standards or the like...

I say "No". They are not our documents. Even if they are controlled as third party documents they do not belong in the document system. Particularly if they have a legal disclaimer about unauthorized distribution, etc.

As an auditor what would you do if you spotted this?
It depends on the document and on the reason the auditee has the document. Long ago I represented a company which manufactured a family of products for which it controlled 80% of the world market. There were several small competitors who manufactured some of the products which had fallen out of patent (generics.) The primary company published and widely distributed to anyone who asked for a copy a 150 page technical manual which described each product, including a completely dimensioned engineering drawing of each item. Included in the manual were application ideas (and more dimensioned engineering drawings) of how best to incorporate the product into an OEM design. It was common knowledge that the sales force for each competitor carried my client's technical manual in the sales kit because it was considered the industry "bible" - Our client considered it flattering and probably gained more business because of the exposure. Is the practice really much different than one auto dealer having the specs of a different brand to use as proof when comparing features of his brand with the competitor?

The legal question arises when the information is a trade secret of the competitor and has been obtained with subterfuge to gain an advantage over the competitor (an upstart soft drink company with a copy of Coke's secret formula would be an apt comparison versus buying the Coke and offering a blind taste test to potential purchasers as Pepsi once did.)
 

ScottK

Not out of the crisis
Staff member
Super Moderator
#5
It depends on the document and on the reason the auditee has the document. Long ago I represented a company which manufactured a family of products for which it controlled 80% of the world market. There were several small competitors who manufactured some of the products which had fallen out of patent (generics.) The primary company published and widely distributed to anyone who asked for a copy a 150 page technical manual which described each product, including a completely dimensioned engineering drawing of each item. Included in the manual were application ideas (and more dimensioned engineering drawings) of how best to incorporate the product into an OEM design. It was common knowledge that the sales force for each competitor carried my client's technical manual in the sales kit because it was considered the industry "bible" - Our client considered it flattering and probably gained more business because of the exposure. Is the practice really much different than one auto dealer having the specs of a different brand to use as proof when comparing features of his brand with the competitor?

The legal question arises when the information is a trade secret of the competitor and has been obtained with subterfuge to gain an advantage over the competitor (an upstart soft drink company with a copy of Coke's secret formula would be an apt comparison versus buying the Coke and offering a blind taste test to potential purchasers as Pepsi once did.)

I'm not questioning that the company possesses competitors' documents... everyone does. It's part of doing business. I expect a company I work at to at least have the competitors' catalogs and such.

I'm questioning putting them in the document management system.
 

harry

Super Moderator
#6
Most 'fast moving consumer goods' organizations would have a 'market intelligence system' and such informations are very important and confidential where only the privilege few can have access.

It would be crazy to have such highly confidential information within the document control/management system.
 
T

Ted Schmitt

#7
What are your thoughts on controlling competitors' documents?

Say you get your hands on some drawings or test standards or the like...

I say "No". They are not our documents. Even if they are controlled as third party documents they do not belong in the document system. Particularly if they have a legal disclaimer about unauthorized distribution, etc.

As an auditor what would you do if you spotted this?
Do you use these documents as reference on a regular basis? Or are the things you peak at once in a while? If you use them on a regular basis, I don´t see much difference in the control you should have for these documents and the control you should have on other external docments (that are within your control system).

As an auditor I would only mention / comment / point out / write up if I saw a consistant use of such documents in any of your processes and not being part of your doc control system.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#8
Do you use these documents as reference on a regular basis? Or are the things you peak at once in a while? If you use them on a regular basis, I don´t see much difference in the control you should have for these documents and the control you should have on other external docments (that are within your control system).

As an auditor I would only mention / comment / point out / write up if I saw a consistant use of such documents in any of your processes and not being part of your doc control system.

Whether you peek at them or not, they are not part of YOUR quality system, are they? External docs like specs and customer docs ARE part of your system. That is why they have to be controlled, to make sure the information is accurate. Competitors docs would rarely actually be part of your system.
 

Randy

Super Moderator
#9
Scott, have someone contact Pepsi-Cola and Coca-Cola and ask them their opinion on the subject?

Also see if they can contact the lady serving prison time and solicit her opinion as well.
 

Wes Bucey

Quite Involved in Discussions
#10
Scott, have someone contact Pepsi-Cola and Coca-Cola and ask them their opinion on the subject?

Also see if they can contact the lady serving prison time and solicit her opinion as well.
As I said - it depends on the document and the use to which it is put. Certainly, EVERYONE involved in the COKE thing knew the documents in question were COKE trade secrets. (If I were a Pepsi guy, I would have been afraid I was being entrapped in some sort of a sting.)

In the case of the technical manual I described above - the manual was widely published and distributed - about 25,000 copies a year for at least ten years I was associated with the client.

Before we speculate further, let's find out WHY these competitor documents are in hand and to what purpose.

I agree with everyone that these are "probably" not anything to be put into a Controlled Document system, but might be kept as reference material . I am aware of dozens of organizations that have copies of the Quality Manuals of customers, suppliers, and competitors which have been used as reference material in creating their own Quality Manual. Certainly, some organizations might have need to include customer and supplier Quality Manuals in their controlled document system, but I really can't think of a good reason to put a competitor's manual in the system. IF, however, an organization makes one-off copies of products which are no longer produced by a competitor, then the original design and production documents might be crucial to its controlled document system. This happens frequently in the aerospace field for replacement parts for aging aircraft.
 
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