Independent Auditor - Conflict of interest question

Q

QA_chick

#11
Given this person's resistance, regardless of whether or not the claim of conflict of interest is valid, I would seriously consider not forcing the issue. In all likelihood you won't get a good report, or the report may be slanted/suspect.
 
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Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#12
This matter has gotten me in a bit of trouble with a boss above my boss. I don't manage the internal audit program here, but I am considered an internal audit 'guru' because I managed the internal audit program at my last company which is much larger than the current company.

One of the internal auditors here says she cannot complete the Management Review Process Audit because she inputs data into the Management System that is used for evaluation of supplier performance & quality. She believes that her input into a subject that is reviewed in management review is a conflict of interest.

She has gotten this 'big boss' to agree. His comment is that she knows everything about supplier performance & quality evaluation and therefore cannot ask open minded questions about the management review of supplier performance & quality because she already 'knows it all'.

My take is that she enters data and prints reports that are used by the people who do the management review. Why can't she ask open minded questions about how that information is used in management review? She doesn't review supplier performance & quality - she enters the data and prints the reports for someone else to review.

Would the 'official' ISO9001 policy be that an auditor has to be completely untainted by any contact with a process in order to be considered independent enough to audit it? This place is less than 100 people and has 6 auditors. None of them are likely to be independent under those circumstances.

Now the guy who schedules the audits wants me to finish it. Unfortunately I attend the Management Review meetings, am involved in decisions, and manage the documentation of the process. I am less independent of that process than the assigned auditor. The big boss is pissed at me because I disagreed with him. Am I wrong?:frust:
As an external auditor, I do not see a conflict. She works in the supplier performance part of the purchasing process. On the other hand, if she does not want to, don't force her.It is counter-productive. The standard simply does not want someone to audit the stuff they do all the time. They may not have an objective and independent point of view.
 
K

Ken Stage

#13
I agree that there is no conflict. With the criteria "I put in some of the data", who could audit management and management review? You would have to go outside for your internal audits!
 

rstocum

Involved In Discussions
#15
Fired? Not yet... It is Friday today, I'll let you know.

It is never good to get in a bad way with people who are high enough on the food chain to fire you, especially in today's tough economic environment.

I got in a bad way with someone who can fire me. If he decides he can hire a new grad for half my pay, he might.

The worst part is, this guy knows I was right. He has had water cooler discussions with his executive peers, and they told him he had his head up somewhere. He can't admit that publicly, or he would lose face.

Another problem is that our auditors are spread out in terms of job descriptions. We have an informal list of who can't audit what process because they perform that process. If Miss Data Entry can't or won't audit Management Review, we only have two auditors who can touch it. That will make the audits pretty stale in short order.

Oh well. I know why she didn't want to finish it by the way. She would have to interview the CEO. He's a really cool old bird, but he has a way of using questions to really put the questioner on the spot, and she doesn't know how to deal with him. Makes her nervous. He does that to all the other newer auditors too. Maybe I'll never get a real audit on that process. Minor non-conformance from our registrar someday, I expect.
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#17
...Oh well. I know why she didn't want to finish it by the way. She would have to interview the CEO. He's a really cool old bird, but he has a way of using questions to really put the questioner on the spot, and she doesn't know how to deal with him. Makes her nervous. He does that to all the other newer auditors too. Maybe I'll never get a real audit on that process. Minor non-conformance from our registrar someday, I expect.
Sometimes it helps to have a 2 person team audit top management. Takes some of the nervousness out. However, that audit can only be as effective as top management allows. It is the acid test of their true committment to your ISO system.

However, make sure you give them a beneficial audit. They are very busy and you are interupting their day. Are you asking meaningful questions they think add value to their work? If not, why should they respect it? I'm not sure many data entry clerks are equipped to do a meaningful audit of top folks.
 

Coury Ferguson

Moderator here to help
Staff member
Super Moderator
#18
Fired? Not yet... It is Friday today, I'll let you know.

It is never good to get in a bad way with people who are high enough on the food chain to fire you, especially in today's tough economic environment.

I got in a bad way with someone who can fire me. If he decides he can hire a new grad for half my pay, he might.

The worst part is, this guy knows I was right. He has had water cooler discussions with his executive peers, and they told him he had his head up somewhere. He can't admit that publicly, or he would lose face.

Another problem is that our auditors are spread out in terms of job descriptions. We have an informal list of who can't audit what process because they perform that process. If Miss Data Entry can't or won't audit Management Review, we only have two auditors who can touch it. That will make the audits pretty stale in short order.

Oh well. I know why she didn't want to finish it by the way. She would have to interview the CEO. He's a really cool old bird, but he has a way of using questions to really put the questioner on the spot, and she doesn't know how to deal with him. Makes her nervous. He does that to all the other newer auditors too. Maybe I'll never get a real audit on that process. Minor non-conformance from our registrar someday, I expect.
De-Railed :topic:

Let's try to stay focused on the original question: Is there a conflict of interest with this Internal Auditor.

If this post and posts thereof want to continue this part of the discussion, start a new thread in Water Cooler or another one.
 
Q

qualitymanager

#19
:topic:

<snip>
Another problem is that our auditors are spread out in terms of job descriptions. We have an informal list of who can't audit what process because they perform that process. If Miss Data Entry can't or won't audit Management Review, we only have two auditors who can touch it. That will make the audits pretty stale in short order.

Oh well. I know why she didn't want to finish it by the way. She would have to interview the CEO. He's a really cool old bird, but he has a way of using questions to really put the questioner on the spot, and she doesn't know how to deal with him. Makes her nervous. He does that to all the other newer auditors too. Maybe I'll never get a real audit on that process. Minor non-conformance from our registrar someday, I expect.
Outsourcing is an option (cost/benefit analysis, risk of "outsiders" seeing confidential info, etc. will have to be considered first, of course).
 
Last edited by a moderator:
R

ralphsulser

#20
:topic:



Outsourcing is an option (cost/benefit analysis, risk of "outsiders" seeing confidential info, etc. will have to be considered first, of course).
This is helpful and sometimes required as in the case of TS16949/Ford Customer Specific requirements to have "Fresh eyes" review/audit the QMS.
We have had outside CB auditors come in to make sure we are doing the right things, the right way.
 
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