Integrated (ISO 9001 & 14001 and OHSAS 18001) Management Review Meetings

Randy

Super Moderator
#11
Re: Integrated Management Review meetings

Thanks guys for the inputs. One thing more, we use the following format for documenting the minutes of management review meeting. The agenda covers all the input requirements of management review, I presume. So if you guys can just go through it and offer a piece of advise!!!!!!!!

Whoaaaa! Your agenda covers the inputs to management review? Is this what you originally meant to say about covering the clauses? If so, there is nothing wrong with what your auditor said.
 
Elsmar Forum Sponsor
V

Valeri

#12
Re: Integrated Management Review meetings

Whoaaaa! Your agenda covers the inputs to management review? Is this what you originally meant to say about covering the clauses? If so, there is nothing wrong with what your auditor said.
Your Whoaaa! should have been MUCH larger:agree1:
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#13
Re: Integrated Management Review meetings

This monday I audited an organization. They showed the management review meeting. I noticed was they do for the meeeting is 1. Prepare powerpoint presentation, 2. minutes of the meeting.
From presentation it is shown that certain points are addressed like audits or corrective preventive actions but from minutes it could not be seen that anything has been discussed.

There is no requirement to record every discussion item. There are ways to determine the depth of discussion and review. Interview people who particpated in the meeting. Look at notes, records, minutes. Action items, assignments, projects...
 

Helmut Jilling

Auditor / Consultant
#14
Re: Integrated Management Review meetings

Your TUV auditor is totally wrong, and absolutely incorrect and I publically say so.

Your internal audit must show that all applicable requirements have been assessed and have been effectively implemented. All that is required of management is to review the results of the audit, the performance of your system and make decisions based on what those results are.

Maybe you should have stayed with BSI;)

...and the other inputs stated in the standards. But, Randy is right. Clauses do not have to be covered. However, note, some standards require that the procedures be reviewed periodically, and these would relate to some of the clauses. But, even those do not have to be reviewed in the Management Meeting. What a boring meeting that would be...
 
M

Mark R.

#15
Re: Integrated Management Review meetings

You should have stayed with BSI. There's no reason (or requirement) to address each clause.

As for ISO 9001, 14001 and OHSAS 18001, they are quite compatible, and a joint Management Review isn't too difficult.

In a corporate role (my previous life), we'd develop an agenda addressing all three standards, have a sign-in log for the meeting attendees, and afterwards prepare a formal report (minutes) of what we discussed.

Any information provided durig this review (including statistics and/or powerpoint) we'd attached to the minutes.

We never had any problems with this approach, and had a multi-site certificate for more than 20 locations.

Hope this helps,

Mark
 

Patricia Ravanello

Quite Involved in Discussions
#16
Re: Integrated Management Review Meetings

Hi friends,
This is infact my first post on the message board. We, at our organization, are certified to ISO 9001:2000, ISO 14001:2004 and OHSAS 18001:1999, and integrated all 3 of them to form the Q-SHE ( Quality, Saftey, Health and environmental ) Management system. Now one requirement of all the 3 standards is to conduct management review at defined intervals to review the status of progress of the three systems. What I'd like to know is how can I design the management review meeting wherein all the requirements of all the 3 standards are reviewed and documented.
Please note that the management reviews are conducted every six months, but practically I am finding it very difficult to cover each clause of all the 3 standards in 1 meeting of top management.

So kindly advise

Regards
Lakshit

Hi Lakshit,

I concur with earlier posts that you don't need to attempt to review all the clauses (that's the element approach). You have to review the Processes.

Perhaps this might help:

I'm not suggesting that you should even be expected to cover 50% of your System Review in 1 meeting, but I think that the 1st step to efficient Management Review Meetings is in the design of your Procedural Flowcharts. If you have integrated all standards into one system, then when you audit, you are auditing all 3 simultaneously, hence the review should be a consolidated one.

If you look at the attached Flow Chart for Internal Auditing, you see that the requirements of 3 standards are integrated as you described in your organization (ISO/TS, ISO 14001 and Customer-specific requirements). The attachment shows the associated requirements segregated in yellow (TS), green (14001) and red boxes (CSR). This is not a requirement, of course, but it's a tremendous help to your internal auditors and can help them to prepare appropriate audit questions.

When you conduct audits of this integrated system, you audit each step in sequence per the flow chart (process approach), and in doing so, you will have audited all 3 sets of requirements.

The concern that I have with your remarks is that a formal Management Review is only conducted twice annually. Isn't it a bit late to be reacting to the findings of audits and process performance 6 months after their occurrence? If Management is just doing it to fulfil a minimum requirements, they aren't likely being effective or efficient. Your task is being treated as if it's just perfunctory by Management.

Of course, your job of presenting 6 months of audit findings, as well as process performance results at a single meeting, is unrealistic. Management has an obligation to "determine and provide the resources needed to implement and maintain the quality management system and continually improve its effectiveness" (per clause 6.1.a). I think that includes providing adequate time to effectively and efficiently meet this requirement.

It's not likely that your organization will reap the benefits intended by these Standards. They are treating it more like it's an unpleasant obligation to be fulfilled as infrequently as possible.

Perhaps you could solicit the support of your External Auditor to gently prod Management toward a more pro-active approach. They should conduct monthly meetings which are shorter, and which allow them to focus, and respond to your findings in a timely manner.

Good Luck!
Patricia Ravanello
 

Attachments

C

CliffK

#17
Re: Integrated Management Review Meetings

<snip>
The concern that I have with your remarks is that a formal Management Review is only conducted twice annually. Isn't it a bit late to be reacting to the findings of audits and process performance 6 months after their occurrence?
The standard allows organizations to determine the management review interval for a reason. There's nothing wrong with this interval, in and of itself. We need to know a lot more about how the organization operates before offering criticism.

If there's an issue that truly needs top management involvement, it's wrong to wait for a regularly scheduled meeting to tell them about it. If you need help, ask for it when you need it, not at the next meeting.

If management truly doesn't care, trying to make them sit through monthly meeting isn't very likely to improve matters.
If Management is just doing it to fulfil a minimum requirements, they aren't likely being effective or efficient. Your task is being treated as if it's just perfunctory by Management.
No evidence to support this conclusion.
Of course, your job of presenting 6 months of audit findings, as well as process performance results at a single meeting, is unrealistic.
Summary, anyone?

I would claim that an effective management rep has been getting his or her top management involved as necessary all along. Along with that, an effective management rep doesn't burden his management team with unnecessary details.
Management has an obligation to "determine and provide the resources needed to implement and maintain the quality management system and continually improve its effectiveness" (per clause 6.1.a). I think that includes providing adequate time to effectively and efficiently meet this requirement.
No evidence provided to show they aren't.
It's not likely that your organization will reap the benefits intended by these Standards. They are treating it more like it's an unpleasant obligation to be fulfilled as infrequently as possible.
Unwarranted conclusion.
Perhaps you could solicit the support of your External Auditor to gently prod Management toward a more pro-active approach. They should conduct monthly meetings which are shorter, and which allow them to focus, and respond to your findings in a timely manner.
Not good advice.

First, we don't know that the management review interval is causing a problem.

Second, it's not a good idea to use the CB auditor as a shill for your ideas. If the management team even suspects that such things are going on, it will damage the credibility of the audit program.

Third, an experienced CB auditor will have seen organizations that do just fine with a six month management review interval.
 

Patricia Ravanello

Quite Involved in Discussions
#18
Re: Integrated Management Review Meetings

The standard allows organizations to determine the management review interval for a reason. There's nothing wrong with this interval, in and of itself. We need to know a lot more about how the organization operates before offering criticism....

...Third, an experienced CB auditor will have seen organizations that do just fine with a six month management review interval.
Hi Cliff,

Thanks for pointing out the tenability of my comments. Your points are valid. However, I think that the incongruence of our perspectives revolves around the definition of Management Review.

I am assuming that Management Review of the Management Operating System includes Performance Metrics (as well as Audit results...internal and external, etc.). I admit I am digressing from Lakshit's issue of reviewing all the "elements" of the 3 standards in question, which I think has been admirably addressed in this thread. Instead, I focused my comments on my concern for the infrequency of documented Management Reviews and their likely impact (maybe this should be another Thread).

Obviously, neither of us have evidence of the impact of infrequent Management Reviews on "Lakshit's organization". My comments were clearly made based on assumptions regarding the likely impact of infrequent reviews of "compromised scope" due to lack of time. You're right, I don't have evidence in this case. I only have the evidence of my personal experience and observations of similar scenarios in other organizaions.

To be able to offer an effective "corrective action", we need to do an appropriate "Root Cause"...starting with the Problem definition.

I was trying to offer a solution to a difficult problem that many Management Reps face...a lack of "engagement" by Senior Management. The "System" does not belong to the Management Rep, it belongs to Senior Management. It is their tool for managing the organization. If they only want to "look at the gauges on their Organizational Dashboard" twice a year...that's great...if it works for them. If they want to "fine tune" performance, I think that the answer is in frequency of review. I think the success of a company with infrequent reviews is more "serendipitous" than "planned".

Clearly Lakshit is having a problem with it. The support of the CB in this regard can be very effective, if warranted.

What solution would you offer to the problem of not being able to cover the agenda (assuming that it is the right agenda, and not just " a review of all the standard elements)?

Regards.
Patricia Ravanello
 
C

CliffK

#19
Re: Integrated Management Review Meetings

I was trying to offer a solution to a difficult problem that many Management Reps face...a lack of "engagement" by Senior Management.
We're quick to bemoan the lack of interest on the part of management. I wish we were as quick to examine our own contribution to it. How much time was spent before the meeting distilling the issues down to the significant few? How much editorial time was spent ensuring that the bullet points were succinct, clear and stated in terms important to senior management?
If they want to "fine tune" performance, I think that the answer is in frequency of review. I think the success of a company with infrequent reviews is more "serendipitous" than "planned".
Too many assumptions here. Different circumstances require different actions.
Clearly Lakshit is having a problem with it. The support of the CB in this regard can be very effective, if warranted.
If warranted. Big if, that.
Right way: "I'm concerned about the effectiveness of our management reviews. I would like to focus on that during this audit."
Wrong way: "I think we need to have management reviews more often. Can you help me convince my management team?"
What solution would you offer to the problem of not being able to cover the agenda (assuming that it is the right agenda, and not just " a review of all the standard elements)?


Regards.
Patricia Ravanello
Fair challenge. How about this:

Make sure the problem isn't you.
  1. Take a class or read a book on making an effective presentation. Find a way to hone your skills.
  2. Set an expectation that the management review will be a status meeting, not a decision making session or problem solving session.
  3. Don't dwell on things that are going okay, as shown by their measurements.
  4. Report on problem areas. Give enough information so the executive understands the problem, then quit. Be fair; give both sides of the issue. Review the issue with the other side before the meeting; no surprises. If you treat issues unfairly in these meetings, you are only cutting yourself off at the knees.
  5. For problems you report, get a problem-solving or decision-making session set up with a report back due in two to three weeks. If the executive disagrees, you fought the good fight and lost. If the executive agrees drive the sessions. If the other players won't play, turn their sorry selves in.
 

Patricia Ravanello

Quite Involved in Discussions
#20
Re: Integrated Management Review Meetings

We're quick to bemoan the lack of interest on the part of ...

Fair challenge. How about this:

Make sure the problem isn't you.
  1. Take a class or read a book on making an effective presentation. Find a way to hone your skills.
  2. Set an expectation that the management review will be a status meeting, not a decision making session or problem solving session.
  3. Don't dwell on things that are going okay, as shown by their measurements.
  4. Report on problem areas. Give enough information so the executive understands the problem, then quit. Be fair; give both sides of the issue. Review the issue with the other side before the meeting; no surprises. If you treat issues unfairly in these meetings, you are only cutting yourself off at the knees.
  5. For problems you report, get a problem-solving or decision-making session set up with a report back due in two to three weeks. If the executive disagrees, you fought the good fight and lost. If the executive agrees drive the sessions. If the other players won't play, turn their sorry selves in.
Alas my dear Cliff, it seems that you too have succumbed to the same malady that you found so objectionable in me...that of making assumptions...

I don't know why I feel that you have taken an adversarial stance toward me, nonetheless, it appears to me that your input (above) is based on the presupposition that these activites are not already being implemented.

I don't care to get into a proverbial pissing match with you...I was only trying to offer another perspective that hadn't already been discussed. I think your suggestions offer a viable metholology to adopt...of course that's assuming that they're not already being implemented in Lakshit's organization.

Regards,
Patricia
 
Last edited:
Thread starter Similar threads Forum Replies Date
J Audit Checklist for Integrated Management System for ISO 9001:2015, ISO 14001 & OHSAS18001 (IMS) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
B Integrated management system - ISO 9001 and ISO 14001 - Is possible to have a joint certificate covering both standards? ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 6
B Integrated Quality Manual ISO 13485:2003 ISO 9001:2015 ISO 13485:2016 - Medical Device Quality Management Systems 6
A Integrated Management Systems - ISO 50001 and ISO 9001 possible? ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
W ISO 9001, ISO 14001 and 18001 Integrated Approach ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
S ISO 9001, ISO 17020 and ISO 3834 Joint (Integrated) QMS ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 7
H Integrated Manual for ISO 9001:2008 and API Q1, Eighth Edition. Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 6
A Integrated Manuals that cover ISO 9001, ISO 14001 and OHSAS 18001 Quality Management System (QMS) Manuals 9
S Need Integrated Management System Manual (ISO 9001, 14001 & OHSAS 18001) Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 11
L Value of an integrated system (iso 9001, iso 14001, oshas 18001) Misc. Quality Assurance and Business Systems Related Topics 11
S Integrated ISO 9001 and ISO 14001 system for a very small business ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 6
A ISO 17020 vs. ISO 9001 standards integrated checklists required? Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 15
Colin Integrated Systems Assessment for ISO 9001 / ISO 14001 / BS OHSAS 18001 Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 19
C Integrated Quality EHS&S (ISO 9001:2000 and RC14001) Manual for comment Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 6
L Integrated Quality System Manual for ISO 9001 - ISO 17025 ISO 17025 related Discussions 7
J Programme for ISO 9001:2000 Certification & Integrated QEHS Management System ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
D Integrated ISO 9001 Quality Policy and ISO 14001 Environmental Policy ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 12
A Quality Manual for ISO 9001 integrated with AAALAC (Animal care program) ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
M Interview question - IMS (Integrated Management Systems) a necessity or an ISO mistake? ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 10
G Integrated ISO EHSQ Multi-Site Certification ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 3
S Sample document for integrated ISO 20000 & ISO 27001 Other ISO and International Standards and European Regulations 3
H ISO 26000 ... THE integrated management system? Various Other Specifications, Standards, and related Requirements 8
B Registration - Integrated TS 16949 and ISO 14000 IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 8
E How to implement an integrated QMS&EMS fitting organisation practices & ISO norms? Quality Manager and Management Related Issues 6
G Examples of Integrated ISO 14001:2004 and OHSAS 18001: 1999 policy manuals Occupational Health & Safety Management Standards 13
S ISO 14000 Integrated into ISO 2000? Bad Idea? Miscellaneous Environmental Standards and EMS Related Discussions 8
A IPPC - Integrated Pollution Prevention and Control and ISO 14001 ISO 14001:2015 Specific Discussions 4
V Designing an integrated ISO 9000 - ISO 14000 System in a Big Marine Port Design and Development of Products and Processes 3
V Iso 9000:2000 / Iso 14000 Integrated Management Systems Quality Assurance and Compliance Software Tools and Solutions 1
J Integrated ISO 9000, ISO 14000 and Health & Safety OHSAS 18001 Systems Document Control Systems, Procedures, Forms and Templates 19
lanley liao Does all of the suppliers need to integrated into the supplier list qualified of the company? Oil and Gas Industry Standards and Regulations 2
A 60601-1 : Integrated Dry ECG Electrodes = 2 Patient connections inside 1 applied part? IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 5
A 60601-1-2 : Integrated Dry Electrodes = PATIENT COUPLED PORT? IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 0
G Management Review (integrated system) Management Review Meetings and related Processes 17
G IMS (Integrated Management System) 9001, 14001 & 45001- Request Assistance ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 8
U Imagine a technology which is an artificial muscle and is integrated into textiles... Coffee Break and Water Cooler Discussions 1
E Scales integrated in medical device IEC 60601 - Medical Electrical Equipment Safety Standards Series 4
B Efficacy of Q-Das system integrated with PC-DMIS Inspection, Prints (Drawings), Testing, Sampling and Related Topics 0
A Integrated risk and opportunities evalution template ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 0
T From certified QMS to certified integrated MS ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 4
A Integration of Information Security in an existent Integrated Management System IEC 27001 - Information Security Management Systems (ISMS) 4
M Integrated Phased Processes - AS9100D cl. 8.1 Operational Planning - Clarification AS9100, IAQG, NADCAP and Aerospace related Standards and Requirements 8
T Guidance - Setting up an integrated quality & environmental management system Career and Occupation Discussions 12
G What to do and prepare for an Integrated Management Systems Audit ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 2
M IMS - Integrated ISO9001, ISO14001 & OHSAS 18001 Internal Audit Checklist Internal Auditing 3
S GDPMD integrated with ISO9001 Other Medical Device and Orthopedic Related Topics 3
D IMS (Integrated Management Systems) for 6 standards ISO 9000, ISO 9001, and ISO 9004 Quality Management Systems Standards 5
D Integrated 9001, 14001, 18001 Management Review Meeting and Minutes Management Review Meetings and related Processes 10
B FMEA example for Cokemaking Process at a integrated Iron and Steelmaking Plant IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3
A Measureables to Monitor an Integrated Management System Capability IATF 16949 - Automotive Quality Systems Standard 3

Similar threads

Top Bottom